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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:18 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3868
Location: San Diego
Larry_in_Seattle wrote:
Tony:
The BTC charger in Marysville, WA is shown in a picture on Plugshare delivering 388VDC at 100 Amps. This is a charger that I couldn't get to work with my first alpha unit. Would this be one of the units that the production unit won't work with... at this time?

And when you say, "Don't use", is there any danger to the equipment or car, or is it simply that it doesn't work and don't waste your time?


Larry, you have completely different software (and mostly different hardware). Yours won't work at the original BTC chargers, for instance, in Irvine.

So, the message is for current production units, serial number 1 through 46. Please don't use those chargers. There is no danger to the car or the JdeMO equipment, but you might fault out or otherwise disable the chargers.

Please confirm that your unit works OK at BTC chargers (NRG network) in Washington?


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:47 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:09 pm
Posts: 161
Location: Shoreline, WA
Will do. I may get there tomorrow, but if not will try it out as soon as I can.
There are new units at Northgate mall, too. Same brand so I'll try both locations... unless one of the other Seattle JdeMO folks already has.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 6:15 am
Posts: 321
Location: Volcano, CA
how do you tell a btc cgarger that will work vs. one which wont? is there some obvious physical difference?


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 39
Is there a way to update JdeMO firmware to deal with these sorts of issues as they inevitably arise?


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3868
Location: San Diego
Aries wrote:
Is there a way to update JdeMO firmware to deal with these sorts of issues as they inevitably arise?


We didn't know the issues until about a week ago. So, the first issue is defining all the issues. Then some period of testing to ensure that any change we make doesn't affect already known good locations.

There is no update procedure, since we had no plans to do so. What will likely happen is we swap the control box at some point in the future.

I want to reiterate that so far, we are talking about six chargers out of 10,000.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:13 am 
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Location: San Diego
n3ckf wrote:
how do you tell a btc cgarger that will work vs. one which wont? is there some obvious physical difference?


I specifically identified the exact locations of known good and bad BTC chargers.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 39
I wonder if it might not be a bad idea to incorporate a firmware update ability or "service port" just-in-case? I don't anticipate these six chargers being a huge deal right now but who knows what might come up "tomorrow"!

That being said, I wouldn't want to delay jdemo any further than it already has been to add a feature like this. Maybe this feature could be incorporated into the control box swap should that occur...?

Just a bought!


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:37 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 39
[quote="Aries"]Just a bought![/quote]

Thought. Sigh.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:44 am
Posts: 151
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
[quote="TonyWilliams"]We didn't know the issues until about a week ago. So, the first issue is defining all the issues. Then some period of testing to ensure that any change we make doesn't affect already known good locations.[/quote]

As a software engineer, I'm curious to know what is involved in the CHAdeMO charging process that can lead to a failure to charge with some chargers vs. others. If you don't mind sharing, it would be enlightening to hear what is the source of the complexity. Is there a different approach that can be taken to minimize future potential incompatibility?

I'm particularly concerned about these "new BTC chargers" going in as the places I want to be able to take my RAV4 are away from the metro areas and where most existing chargers are located. (That was my vehicle that gave you the diagnosing trouble last week at those NRG EvGo BTC chargers in Santa Cruz.) I was actually going to start a new thread in order to collect and maintain a handy list of JdeMO-incompatible charger locations but you beat me to it with your post.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:21 pm 
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Location: San Diego
Incredulocious wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
We didn't know the issues until about a week ago. So, the first issue is defining all the issues. Then some period of testing to ensure that any change we make doesn't affect already known good locations.


As a software engineer, I'm curious to know what is involved in the CHAdeMO charging process that can lead to a failure to charge with some chargers vs. others. If you don't mind sharing, it would be enlightening to hear what is the source of the complexity. Is there a different approach that can be taken to minimize future potential incompatibility?

I'm particularly concerned about these "new BTC chargers" going in as the places I want to be able to take my RAV4 are away from the metro areas and where most existing chargers are located. (That was my vehicle that gave you the diagnosing trouble last week at those NRG EvGo BTC chargers in Santa Cruz.) I was actually going to start a new thread in order to collect and maintain a handy list of JdeMO-incompatible charger locations but you beat me to it with your post.


Well, I've driven up and down the west coast multiple times (as well as others) with JdeMO without much issue. It seems there is always going to be something not fully compatible, somewhere, and there are DOZENS of charger models out there already. Lack of comprehensive interoperability is the number one issue. We can't potentially disable one type of charger while trying to fix a far smaller problem elsewhere, so progress toward a fix will be a bit slower than in the past.

However, I believe that most of the software issues were solved before we knew there was a problem with the newer BTC chargers. My personal car charges just fine at all the chargers, with some caveats.

My car has the "next" (Nov 2015) software, and it was developed for the new Tritium Veefill that was tested just a week before you got your JdeMO(s) that have June 2015 software. Even with this newer software, we see two errors with Tritium... Fault 20 (vehicle request too much current) and Fault 39 (don't know the specifics of this error yet). As you might imagine, it's a bit difficult to get technical info out of a company in Austrailia over Xmas.

Because we had already made specific changes to JdeMO just for the original BTC chargers, we assumed those changes worked at all BTC chargers. Clearly, that's not the case. In your specific case, my car charged fine in Santa Cruz, and at other BTC chargers, so it was a real head scratcher why your car didn't charge. I removed the JdeMO circuit card from your car and tested it back to back with my "known good" cards (I had several with me).

So, the specific issue with starting a charge with Tritium (and presumably the newer BTC chargers) is a timing function at start-up. The fault messages from Tritium may not be any issue that has anything to do with us... we just don't know yet.

At the moment of "handshake complete" (this is directly after the insulation test, when the charger ramps up from zero to 500 volts, then back down to zero), the contactors close on both the charger and the vehicle (you will hear a clunk under the hood), the very next thing that happens is that the charger checks for over 50 volts from the vehicle battery. You will see this battery voltage on some charger displays; on the RAV4 EV, this battery voltage will be between 280 volts and 380 volts.

The charger has exactly one full second for this test. At exactly one second past contactor closed, (updates are at 100ms), our June 2015 software asks for 1 amp. The specification allows for between one and two seconds for this command. Then, at 1.5 seconds, we ask for more amps at 20 amps per second (maximum per specification).

The Tritium Veefil and newer BTC both fault out at between 1 and 1.5 seconds. I suspect this is because they added a non-compatible message to their software that any current request below XX amps for ZZ milliseconds signals a normal shutdown. We will fix this with a command at 1.3 seconds for 1 amp, then immediately ramp up at 18 amps per second to the max permitted (the lower of what the charger has available, or what the vehicle requests up to the vehicle maximum of 125 amps).

This isn't our first rodeo with interoperability issues. Blink chargers were the worst, as were the original BTC units. Atrocious, actually. We have made our equipment work with those chargers, but things become more complex as more issues are found in other chargers.


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