Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:03 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 4123
Location: San Diego county, California USA
[quote="Airton"]AC should be set to Normal and Temp set all the way down to Low then you can turn down the fan so you don't freeze (as per Tony's instructions)
You should do this on your way to the station so your are ahead of the thermal management game when you start DC fast charging at high temps, very effective.[/quote]

You don't need to adjust the fan speed or temperature. Just select whatever makes you comfortable.

The key point is that the RAV4 cabin climate control is in AUTO, without ECO Lo or Hi... use "normal".

As to a heat soaked battery, there's not much we can do with the existing cooling system. We do need some work in this area.

The cells in the RAV4 are shared with the Roadster (except v3.0 / R80), Mercedes B-Class ED / B250e, and Smart ED (gen 1).

Panasonic / Sanyo designed 18650 - 2600mah:

99s * 69p = 6831 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 64.8kWh (Roadster)

92s * 48p = 4416 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 41.9kWh (2012-2014 RAV4 EV)

88s * 22p = 1936 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 18.3kWh (Smart ED)

84s * 44p = 3696 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 35.1kWh
(2014 - newer Mercedes B-Class ED / B250e)

********

What could we do today? Just let the cells get hotter (maybe 50C, with a cutoff at 51C?)

Or, we offer some upgrade to cool the cells more.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:52 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:23 pm
Posts: 21
Mine does the same; it's been happening on all of my road trips this summer. Never had a problem outside of summer. Still enjoy having JdeMo, but this has caused me to rethink its use during the summer months for long trips when outside temp is above 85.

And yes, it stayed on 'AUTO' and 72 the entire 500+ miles on the first and 350+ on a few others; same results as poster above first 5-10 minutes are good at 125 amps and then 60 amps the remainder (haven't seen 30 due to heat). Setting the temperature down to 'LO' doesn't solve the problem; as soon as you turn the fan speed down manually the compressor begins to cycle due to decreased cabin demand (this allows temperatures to rise). This tells me that the computer doesn't manage the battery temp as actively as often believed. The problem lies in that the compressor is limited by software and only runs at a low speed while stopped (note recent posts on the compressor sound when driving over ~18mph on high AC demand). If this could be overridden somehow, I believe this effect of outside temperature would be diminished substantially.

The first JdeMO charge of the trip works fine as it is starting with the battery in a cooler state, but any subsequent charges are throttled due to heat. After several modest trips this summer I have switched to our Volt as the car of choice due to this, as a 350-mile round trip (in one day) has gone from a 6.5 hours trip to an 8 hour trip due to throttled charging.

The fault is definitely not with JdeMo, but with the car's programming and TMS system (although, in fairness, we are asking it to do something it wasn't engineered to do) . JdeMo is doing as programmed and sacrificing charge rate in order to protect the battery. Remember, we are pushing our batteries hard by using it successively on hot days.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:47 am
Posts: 17
I did have the AC on normal while driving both before and after charging. Did Tony advise to set the AC temperature as low as possible? I thought the temperature set for inside the vehicle had nothing to do with the batter management system. I thought setting the AC to normal allowed the compressor to run at full speed and lowered the maximum temperature that the battery was allowed to run at. But I don't think the temperature setting for inside the vehicle affects the BMS.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:03 pm 
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I think what might be useful is to know at what temperature can you still charge at full speed with Jdemo? From my experience it is definately under 100 degrees. For people reporting their experiences it would be helpful to know if they where in sun or shade and on what kind of surface where they parked. How hot can it be outside and still charge at full speed?

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:52 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
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Location: San Diego county, California USA
I did NOT advise to change the fan speed, or to put the cabin temperature on LO.

Just AUTO - Normal. If it says anything other than AUTO, it's not in AUTO.

AUTO, AUTO, AUTO.

The battery temperature is 45C / 113F when the charge is reduced from 125 amps to 90 amps.

Every 2C increase:

45C - 30 amps
47C - 60 amps
49C - 30 amps
51C - shutdown

The real trick is to not let the battery get too warm. Drive with the cabin climate control in AUTO, and if you have to park in an asphalt parking lot with the sun blazing on a hot day, don't turn the car off. Leave it in READY with the cabin climate control in AUTO - Normal.

Use whatever temperature setting that makes you comfortable in the cabin.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:11 pm 
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Sorry for the confusion Tony. I was talking about what outside temperature would result in the battery getting warm while charging resulting in charging being slowed down. At 100 degrees outside temperature while charging in full sun on asphalt I experienced charging slowing down to 60 amps. So I'm guessing charging at full speed is available at 85-90 degrees outside? I don't know. I live in Long Beach CA where it usually stays cool.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Location: San Diego county, California USA
Unfortunately, there's not going to be a specific outside temperature that causes the battery to get above 45C / 113F.

Using multiple charges on a cool day (with climate control off) could do the same.

Having the car "heat soaked" on just a warm-ish day might do it. That might mean sitting in the sun on an asphalt parking lot with no wind.

But, clearly, 100F and over ambient temperatures don't help!!!

If you're driving the car on hot day, and you need full performance DC fast charging, the best way to keep your battery cool is:

1) Don't turn the car off. Leave it in READY all day.

2) Keep the cabin climate control in AUTO - normal. Do NOT use different fan speeds, do NOT use ECO Lo or Hi, and do NOT turn it off !!! AUTO only should display in the middle of the display.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 4:49 am
Posts: 627
Location: Ithaca, NY
I'm going to read this whole thread so I can learn more about Jdemo but I am definitely curious about how the battery temps are maintained. I want to try to protect my battery as much as possible.

I think I read somewhere that our battery is only liquid cooled or heated when the car is in "ready" mode. Tony's comments above seem to confirm this.

With the teslas I am under the impression that it ALWAYS is active and thats why they had the vampire losses that were making headlines. They seemed to have reduced the losses in recent updates though.

Is my understanding correct?

Also, is this heating and cooling called BMS or is that something else?


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 4123
Location: San Diego county, California USA
The heating and cooling of the battery is called Temperature Management System (TMS), and is controlled by the BMS.

The TMS is only active when the RAV4 EV is in READY or when charging. Or, when you have the 15 minute remote cabin heating / cooling activated.

For hot environments, like those that are over 104F / 40C, I recommend leaving the vehicle in READY the entire time that it is not charging. The cabin climate control must be on AUTO - Normal. If the center of the climate control console doesn't say AUTO, it's not in AUTO. It doesn't matter what cabin temperature... any that your comfortable with.

Not ECO Lo, not ECO Hi, not manually adjusted fan speed. Just AUTO.

Your battery is isn't exceptionally good shape if you get 137 miles with the Tony-Test. Reduced range in winter is from five areas:

1) colder cells hold less energy
2) the battery heater consumes energy (and is separate from the cabin heater)
3) cold weather has more dense air, as well as "contanimated" roads with rain, snow, ice, etc. this requires more energy to move the vehicle
4) cold tires consume more energy to turn
5) lubricants like wheel bearings, gear box oil, constant velocity shaft joints, etc, all require more energy to turn when colder

To mitigate the effects of cold weather, preheat the cabin and use only the seat heaters to keep warm while driving.


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 Post subject: Re: CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV "JdeMO" by Quick Charge Power
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 4:49 am
Posts: 627
Location: Ithaca, NY
[quote="TonyWilliams"]The heating and cooling of the battery is called Temperature Management System (TMS), and is controlled by the BMS.

The TMS is only active when the RAV4 EV is in READY or when charging. Or, when you have the 15 minute remote cabin heating / cooling activated.

For hot environments, like those that are over 104F / 40C, I recommend leaving the vehicle in READY the entire time that it is not charging. The cabin climate control must be on AUTO - Normal. If the center of the climate control console doesn't say AUTO, it's not in AUTO. It doesn't matter what cabin temperature... any that your comfortable with.

Not ECO Lo, not ECO Hi, not manually adjusted fan speed. Just AUTO.

Your battery is isn't exceptionally good shape if you get 137 miles with the Tony-Test. Reduced range in winter is from five areas:

1) colder cells hold less energy
2) the battery heater consumes energy (and is separate from the cabin heater)
3) cold weather has more dense air, as well as "contanimated" roads with rain, snow, ice, etc. this requires more energy to move the vehicle
4) cold tires consume more energy to turn
5) lubricants like wheel bearings, gear box oil, constant velocity shaft joints, etc, all require more energy to turn when colder

To mitigate the effects of cold weather, preheat the cabin and use only the seat heaters to keep warm while driving.[/quote]

Thanks for the TMS and BMS info. Got it.

I never seen 100 degree days in NY but how does the cabin climate control setting have any affect on the TMS? Arent they different systems? I never use auto, I always keep it on normal mode and adjust the fan to whatever speed I want while I am driving it. If your saying I should be doing something different I'm all ears.

Also, I didnt renew the safetyconnect subscription so I no longer have entune. No more remote climate for me. Ill have to be better about going out there and starting the car in really hot or cold conditions.

Lastly, you said "Your battery is isn't exceptionally good shape if you get 137 miles with the Tony-Test.". Which is it?

I'm embarrassed to say but I feel like any degradation is my fault. I had an insurance lapse and in NY the penalty is $10 a day or take your car off the road for the amount of days your insurance had lapsed. So for about 77 days in Jan, Feb, March my car was parked. I went out there once a week and turned it on so BMS and TMS would run but I'm sure that wasn't frequent enough. I did leave the charge level around 50% so thats good at least. But then the 12v battery died and I didn't replace until the 77 days was up. I replaced the battery to find out I had the "Check EV system" light. The car drove and charged fine so I let it go for another month or 2. Turns out they said it was my battery coolant pump and my battery temp wasn't being maintained.
Damn it, so stupid, I know. I really regret all of that. I should've taken better care of it during the lapse.


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