Bassman
Well-known member
Did anybody see the attached article:
(http://chargedevs.com/newswire/misleading-lexus-ad-trashes-plug-ins/
Toyota's at it again.
(http://chargedevs.com/newswire/misleading-lexus-ad-trashes-plug-ins/
Toyota's at it again.
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Toyota's Campaign of Misinformation Against EVs
- Thread starter Bassman
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Airton
Well-known member
unfortunately I did see the article, very sad, shame on Toyota.
tailgate1234
Active member
- Joined
- May 7, 2014
- Messages
- 30
This probably isn't going over well with Tesla. Not good for their continued future support of RAV4s.
miimura
Well-known member
It's just the Lexus Ad Agency gone nuts. Nothing to see here.tailgate1234 said:This probably isn't going over well with Tesla. Not good for their continued future support of RAV4s.
4EVEREV
Well-known member
tailgate1234 said:This probably isn't going over well with Tesla. Not good for their continued future support of RAV4s.
Irrelevant.
mikegerard
Well-known member
It's just an ad. Those are almost always handled by outside agencies and for some crazy reason the company whose brand is at stake pays very little attention to the details.
When I worked at Kodak I was in the marketing organization for awhile. They were very protective of the brand. Any text associated with the brand would be held up for weeks for review. A change to the brand graphic was a two year long effort. But they did ads with Denis Rodman and Mike Tyson. And then the got involved with The Donald and Gene Simmons on The Apprentice.
Toyota's a big company. I'm sure they have the same internal bs that any other SP500 company has.
Mike
When I worked at Kodak I was in the marketing organization for awhile. They were very protective of the brand. Any text associated with the brand would be held up for weeks for review. A change to the brand graphic was a two year long effort. But they did ads with Denis Rodman and Mike Tyson. And then the got involved with The Donald and Gene Simmons on The Apprentice.
Toyota's a big company. I'm sure they have the same internal bs that any other SP500 company has.
Mike
There is one coming from Jim Lentz, CEO of Toyota’s North American region:
Toyota sees battery-electric vehicles as viable only in “a select way, in short-range vehicles that take you that extra mile, from the office to the train, or home to the train, as well as being used on large [corporate] campuses.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...away-from-evs-in-favor-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells
Toyota sees battery-electric vehicles as viable only in “a select way, in short-range vehicles that take you that extra mile, from the office to the train, or home to the train, as well as being used on large [corporate] campuses.
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...away-from-evs-in-favor-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells
Luckyduckie
Well-known member
Maybe they feel threatened ??? They should be! There's a study that shows that a very high percentage of owners EV will not go back to ICE.
I still have my 2000 Lexus RX300 that gets 17 mpg (I keep it for going going up to the snow), but I don't plan on buying another Lexus unless they have a BEV solution.
I still have my 2000 Lexus RX300 that gets 17 mpg (I keep it for going going up to the snow), but I don't plan on buying another Lexus unless they have a BEV solution.
Toyota is losing money on every RAV4-EV. Losing money on every vehicle tends to make RAV4-EV nonviable as Toyota has stated.
Maybe a different tune if they were selling good at $60,000?
Time will tell if FC is any better. I have my doubts.
Maybe a different tune if they were selling good at $60,000?
Time will tell if FC is any better. I have my doubts.
mikegerard
Well-known member
The big question is how much the fuel cell costs. It's rumored that the ones in the GM Equinox's were about 250k each about 7 years ago. It would be pretty impressive if Toyota got to below 100k.
Toyota claims the cost to refuel will be about the same as gas.
How much is someone going to pay for a car that can go 200-300 miles before needing to fill up at a special station that takes 20 minutes to refuel at about what gas costs? Sounds like a car that I can buy from Toyota now for about 20-30k. I think I'll pass.
Toyota claims the cost to refuel will be about the same as gas.
How much is someone going to pay for a car that can go 200-300 miles before needing to fill up at a special station that takes 20 minutes to refuel at about what gas costs? Sounds like a car that I can buy from Toyota now for about 20-30k. I think I'll pass.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
smkettner said:Toyota is losing money on every RAV4-EV. Losing money on every vehicle tends to make RAV4-EV nonviable as Toyota has stated.
Maybe a different tune if they were selling good at $60,000?
Time will tell if FC is any better. I have my doubts.
At the next Rav4 redesign in 5-8 years, they could incorporate a full electric drivetrain option (not as a tacked-on afterthought) and still partner with Tesla with a volume production profitable car.
They need to make it look like a $50k-$75k car, however. Basically, a Model X- Lite.
Give the Supercharger option. Watch sales explode. No futuristic science needed. But, they are not going to make a viable option to the new Toyota darling, hydrogen.
miimura
Well-known member
The problem is not refueling time. I think they already have it down to 10 min. In my mind that's equivalent to a gas station. The problem is refueling locations. I don't have to go out of my way at all to buy gas and I don't have to make extra stops at all to fill my EV. For me, the RAV4 EV meets all my driving needs in the Bay Area. My only other need is going to LA or Tahoe maybe once or twice a year - at most. If they don't have Hydrogen stations in places like Coalinga and San Luis Obispo and Sacramento near the interstate, it's a complete non-starter. A 200 mile BEV and SuperChargers makes so much more sense.mikegerard said:The big question is how much the fuel cell costs. It's rumored that the ones in the GM Equinox's were about 250k each about 7 years ago. It would be pretty impressive if Toyota got to below 100k.
Toyota claims the cost to refuel will be about the same as gas.
How much is someone going to pay for a car that can go 200-300 miles before needing to fill up at a special station that takes 20 minutes to refuel at about what gas costs? Sounds like a car that I can buy from Toyota now for about 20-30k. I think I'll pass.
crxpilot
Active member
Bassman said:Did anybody see the attached article:
(http://chargedevs.com/newswire/misleading-lexus-ad-trashes-plug-ins/
Toyota's at it again.
Haha......pretty funny ad. Gotta laugh at that one! :lol:
4EVEREV
Well-known member
Toyota only partnered with Tesla for a co-marketing NUMI, CARB back patting party. Toyota does not need Tesla to make a great EV or drive system in any way so if they were to partner it would simply be for name sake marketing. I can't see any good economic reason for Toyota to buy anything from Tesla other than PR points on a badge license BS agreement like before, but without the hardware. It was laughable when Toyota acted as though they were getting some EV tech form Tesla when at the time of the RAV was rumored to be made Toyota had far more engineering resources and EV drive experience, they just don't show what they can and do make but they certainly don't need Tesla's engineering help. It was all a big brilliant ploy to help each other out. Styling, culture, and features are a different discussion however.
As the owner of a RAV4 EV, Lexus 450h, and Prius Plug-In, the RAV4 EV is by far the best car to drive! I am not anti-HFC, but I cannot believe it will be a viable alternative within the next 15-20 years. The hydrogen infrastructure is the heavy lift. Even with California subsidizing HFC stations, it will be a nightmare.
As a parallel example, I have driven a Honda CNG at work for six years. Whenever I need to fuel, at other than our company's pumps, it is a total nightmare! HFC refueling will be even worse--too few stations for a minuscule amount of vehicles. Talk about true range anxiety! It is extremely stressful trying to find an alternate fuel station when you need fuel (CNG or Hydrogen).
Someone with one foot still left in reality at Toyota should explain to management that EVs do NOT detract from great hybrids. They enhance the Toyota/Lexus brands! Maybe Toyota has forgotten that everyone has electricity at home, work, and throughout the entire nation without spending $500K-$1 million dollars to build a HFC station. Even if they can get the price down for home refueling stations, the complexity and explosion danger of compressed hydrogen systems is crazy. EVSEs are simple, reliable, available, and relatively cheap. Home solar photovoltaic systems are growing at an phenomenal rate (making fueling costs cheap for the consumer).
How could such a formerly forward-looking company get so far off track! Mind boggling!
Who knows? Maybe Toyota will have the last laugh on me. But I don't think so.
As a parallel example, I have driven a Honda CNG at work for six years. Whenever I need to fuel, at other than our company's pumps, it is a total nightmare! HFC refueling will be even worse--too few stations for a minuscule amount of vehicles. Talk about true range anxiety! It is extremely stressful trying to find an alternate fuel station when you need fuel (CNG or Hydrogen).
Someone with one foot still left in reality at Toyota should explain to management that EVs do NOT detract from great hybrids. They enhance the Toyota/Lexus brands! Maybe Toyota has forgotten that everyone has electricity at home, work, and throughout the entire nation without spending $500K-$1 million dollars to build a HFC station. Even if they can get the price down for home refueling stations, the complexity and explosion danger of compressed hydrogen systems is crazy. EVSEs are simple, reliable, available, and relatively cheap. Home solar photovoltaic systems are growing at an phenomenal rate (making fueling costs cheap for the consumer).
How could such a formerly forward-looking company get so far off track! Mind boggling!
Who knows? Maybe Toyota will have the last laugh on me. But I don't think so.
drmanny3
Well-known member
I saw this article and thought it was interesting with respect to who is supporting H2 systems and who is not.
Battery-electric, or fuel-cell?
Japanese automakers are divided on the subject--Nissan and Mitsubishi brought electric cars to the market early, but Toyota and Honda have dragged their feet, concentrating instead on developing fuel-cell vehicles.
The Japanese government is now on their side, as the country announces plans to become the global leader in fuel-cell powertrains.
According to Nikkei (via The Car Connection), Japan is changing guidelines for fuel-cell vehicles to promote development and sales of the technology.
Significantly, fuel cell owners will now be able to fill their vehicles to 875 atmospheres of pressure, compared to the current 700 atmospheres limit. Without any other changes, this has an immediate effect--20 percent greater range on a tank of hydrogen.
MORE: Honda FCEV Concept Previews Next-Gen Production Fuel Cell Car: Live Photos
Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry should enable this change by the end of the month.
The government is also working on the import and export side. New treaties will make it easier for companies like Mercedes-Benz--also a hydrogen advocate--to import vehicles to Japan, but also make it easier for Japanese firms to export their wares to Europe and beyond.
Japan is also working to broker a deal by which countries would recognize safety tests performed in other countries--making it simpler to sell fuel-cell vehicles around the world.
MORE: Toyota Exec Stresses Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Future, Slams Critics
The hydrogen hill is still a tough climb. As yet, development work is still in its early stages and while there are dozens of different battery-electric vehicles already on sale, fuel-cell cars are notable by their absence.
Few countries have a proper hydrogen refueling infrastructure either, and setting one up--even in relatively small countries like Japan--is much more arduous and expensive than developing an electric charging network.
These issues will, slowly, reverse--both Honda and Toyota have hydrogen road cars in development and each goes on sale next year. And fuel-cell stations are springing up, albeit slowly.
But if hydrogen takes off, Japan's carmakers (and their European and American partners) could well find themselves at the forefront--and other companies will be left playing catch-up.
Even then, there's no guarantee hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will have it easy.
By the time fuel-cell vehicles are on the roads in any meaningful quantity, battery-electric cars may well offer the 300-mile ranges and 10-minute recharge times that hydrogen proponents still tout as the fuel's major benefits. Either way--it will be a fascinating process to watch.
Battery-electric, or fuel-cell?
Japanese automakers are divided on the subject--Nissan and Mitsubishi brought electric cars to the market early, but Toyota and Honda have dragged their feet, concentrating instead on developing fuel-cell vehicles.
The Japanese government is now on their side, as the country announces plans to become the global leader in fuel-cell powertrains.
According to Nikkei (via The Car Connection), Japan is changing guidelines for fuel-cell vehicles to promote development and sales of the technology.
Significantly, fuel cell owners will now be able to fill their vehicles to 875 atmospheres of pressure, compared to the current 700 atmospheres limit. Without any other changes, this has an immediate effect--20 percent greater range on a tank of hydrogen.
MORE: Honda FCEV Concept Previews Next-Gen Production Fuel Cell Car: Live Photos
Japan's Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry should enable this change by the end of the month.
The government is also working on the import and export side. New treaties will make it easier for companies like Mercedes-Benz--also a hydrogen advocate--to import vehicles to Japan, but also make it easier for Japanese firms to export their wares to Europe and beyond.
Japan is also working to broker a deal by which countries would recognize safety tests performed in other countries--making it simpler to sell fuel-cell vehicles around the world.
MORE: Toyota Exec Stresses Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Future, Slams Critics
The hydrogen hill is still a tough climb. As yet, development work is still in its early stages and while there are dozens of different battery-electric vehicles already on sale, fuel-cell cars are notable by their absence.
Few countries have a proper hydrogen refueling infrastructure either, and setting one up--even in relatively small countries like Japan--is much more arduous and expensive than developing an electric charging network.
These issues will, slowly, reverse--both Honda and Toyota have hydrogen road cars in development and each goes on sale next year. And fuel-cell stations are springing up, albeit slowly.
But if hydrogen takes off, Japan's carmakers (and their European and American partners) could well find themselves at the forefront--and other companies will be left playing catch-up.
Even then, there's no guarantee hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will have it easy.
By the time fuel-cell vehicles are on the roads in any meaningful quantity, battery-electric cars may well offer the 300-mile ranges and 10-minute recharge times that hydrogen proponents still tout as the fuel's major benefits. Either way--it will be a fascinating process to watch.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Toyota deal: The press is currently full of the idea that Tesla and Toyota have abandoned their partnership. What Elon Musk said is that the companies had reached the end of the RAV4 EV program, and that Toyota desired to make a deal with Tesla for a higher volume electric car, but Tesla Motors is currently production constrained. Therefore, the two companies cannot move forward on a new car until Tesla can address the production constraints that's limiting Model S production. - See more at: http://www.longtailpipe.com/2014/06/tesla-building-multiple-gigafactories.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook#sthash.yQEcujEV.dpuf
Philly RAV4 EV
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2013
- Messages
- 86
I don't believe that article, If Tesla was so constrained why would they start making batteries for Mercedes, and not continue with Toyota?
miimura
Well-known member
That article is based directly on what Elon said during the Annual Shareholder's meeting on June 3rd. The difference is that the Mercedes program is not "high volume" while Toyota evidently did want to pursue something significant. Selling one complete drivetrain to Toyota would mean one less car that Tesla could sell. That just doesn't make sense at this time. Elon also said they will revisit the issue with Toyota in a year or two.Philly RAV4 EV said:I don't believe that article, If Tesla was so constrained why would they start making batteries for Mercedes, and not continue with Toyota?
http://www.teslamotors.com/2014shareholdermeeting
First Question, Starting at 26:30.
TonyWilliams
Well-known member
Just put a Lexus / Toyota badge on the Tesla third generation car and sell them at Toyota / Lexus dealers.
Compliance issues for Toyota magically go away, and Tesla could meet it 500,000 sales goal. Plus, Toyota still won't have to get their hands dirty with BEV's, and can keep singing how hydrogen is just 15 years away.
Compliance issues for Toyota magically go away, and Tesla could meet it 500,000 sales goal. Plus, Toyota still won't have to get their hands dirty with BEV's, and can keep singing how hydrogen is just 15 years away.
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