Highest total Mileage on RAV4 EV (1st Gen)

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silas

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
7
Hi all,
I'm wondering whether others are aware of what the highest mileage RAV4 EV out there is? This would, of course, be referring to the 1st generation of the model. Has anyone broken past 150,000 miles? It was, and is, a superb vehicle. Many thanks in advance.
 
silas said:
Hi all,
I'm wondering whether others are aware of what the highest mileage RAV4 EV out there is? This would, of course, be referring to the 1st generation of the model. Has anyone broken past 150,000 miles? It was, and is, a superb vehicle. Many thanks in advance.
Avi Hershkovitz has passed 200K miles back on September 24, 2010:

avi_200k.jpg


And number of other owners have passed 100K:

dency_100k.jpg


darell_100k.jpg


jerry_100k.jpg
 
Yes, I discovered this shortly after posting. But Avi did this back in 2010. What about now? Avi in fact did swap out the pack well before hitting 200K. So the question is - and all of us do need to be aware of the answer - what kind of life are those RAV4 owners getting from the pack, and, secondly, what's the highest mileage RAV EV out there?

It's quite important because these RAV4 EVs, 1st gen, currently serve as the best test case for the technology around. Most of the world is not aware that there are battery electric vehicles on the road with well over 100K miles, and believes such possibilities are yet to be proven.
 
It looks like 1st Gen owners are reporting very little charging loss on their 100k+ mile RAV4 EV's. How is that possible? Are those batteries better then the Lithium batteries that we have?

It's seems rather impressive.
 
It's very impressive. We need to shine a spotlight on this under appreciated fact. Those 1st gen RAV4 EVs are jewels, superstars, in terms of representing what the long term reliability and viability of BEVs are. There are precious few of them, and had the EV1s not been crushed by GM, they would be the in this role now, but these RAV4 EVs are a species which is not receiving its fair share of attention today. I fought tooth and nail through pluginamerica.org (as a co-founding member) to keep those vehicles out of the hands of Toyota when they sought to reclaim them after the California ZEV mandate was dismantled. The vehicles truly need to be spotlighted again at this stage in their lifecycle.
 
Toyota put the same basic chemistry battery in the first gen RAV4 and the current non-Plu-In Prius. They tend to last a LOOOoooong time, but make no mistake; they do degrade.

But, the properly cooled lithium batteries also do pretty good.

The highest mileage gen 2 RAV4 is about 60,000 miles. I have 47,000 miles on one, 18,000 on the second and probably 10,000 on the third.

I suspect degradation will be about 15% at 50,000 miles, and 25% at 100,000 miles.

The same rates of degradation would NOT directly apply to a Tesla with the same chemistry cells because those are cooled all the time and the RAV4 EV is not.
 
That's too bad that the degradation is ~25% at 100k. Is cost the main factor you think as to why Toyota didn't ensure the cells were cooled like the Tesla's?

If we plan to keep these cars past 100k miles, it looks like they'll need to have an extended charge just to main 100 miles per charge.

Tony, here's a silly question. At 100k miles, say I want to always extend charge cause I lost 25% because of degradation. Will it still take ~5 hrs regular charge (240v 40a) and another ~1-1.5 hours longer to extend charge, or do these times become 25% shorter? (I'm wishing here :))
 
sqwalker said:
That's too bad that the degradation is ~25% at 100k. Is cost the main factor you think as to why Toyota didn't ensure the cells were cooled like the Tesla's?

No, cost was no factor. The Tesla built pack has all the cooling equipment, but it doesn't come on when the car is off. Cooling is only provided in READY, while charging and during pre-conditioning for the 15 minutes before the scheduled departure time.

They likely turn it off for the simple reason that:

A) Toyota has no desire to or intention to "go the extra mile" to preserve the pack long term. There is no degradation warranty, and provided that the battery physically will propel the car, any degradation is not a Toyota warranty concern.

B) I suspect that Toyota didn't want consumers complaining when the GOM dropped after parking the car.


If we plan to keep these cars past 100k miles, it looks like they'll need to have an extended charge just to main 100 miles per charge.


Well, sure. If it's 30% degraded, you'll have to compensate. Again, the original RAV4 batteries also degrade, as every car battery does.


Tony, here's a silly question. At 100k miles, say I want to always extend charge cause I lost 25% because of degradation. Will it still take ~5 hrs regular charge (240v 40a) and another ~1-1.5 hours longer to extend charge, or do these times become 25% shorter? (I'm wishing here :))


The charger doesn't know the battery is degraded. It pumps the same power in, and if it holds less capacity, it will take less time to fill up. Of course, there will be some losses from additional resistance within the cells.
 
silas said:
Yes, I discovered this shortly after posting. But Avi did this back in 2010. What about now? Avi in fact did swap out the pack well before hitting 200K. So the question is - and all of us do need to be aware of the answer - what kind of life are the RAV4 owners getting from the pack, and, secondly, what's the highest mileage RAV EV out there?

It's quite important because these RAV4 EVs, 1st gen, currently serve as the best test case for the technology around. Most of the world is not aware that there are battery electric vehicles on the road with well over 100K miles, and believes such possibilities are yet to be proven.
While the 1st gen RAV4 had impressive longevity, it would be good to keep in mind that these vehicles used a different type of battery chemistry. I don't think that anyone had expected this type of performance given what GM said about the EV1. Please don't read too much into it. I would look at the results achieved by the Tesla Roadster or the Model S instead. The 2nd gen RAV4 shares many more traits and drivetrain components with those vehicles than with the 1st gen RAV4.

I would also look at LEAFs, Volts and Roadsters with over 100K miles to understand what the current generation of lithium-ion batteries can achieve, and what the results might be. Plug In America has performed several surveys and studies to see what happens with these vehicles out in the field. That might be worth checking out as well.

Generally speaking, the automotive world did not have much faith in this technology when Tesla was working on its Roadster. This has changed significantly, but are caveats. Most of lithium-ion cell types require cooling for best longevity. The old NiMH packs the 1st gen RAV4 used are more robust in automotive applications and withstand heat better. None of the old RAV4s had any battery cooling.
 
While the 1st gen RAV4 had impressive longevity, it would be good to keep in mind that these vehicles used a different type of battery chemistry. I don't think that anyone had expected this type of performance given what GM said about the EV1. Please don't read too much into it. I would look at the results achieved by the Tesla Roadster or the Model S. The 2nd gen RAV4 shares many more traits and drivetrain components with those vehicles than with the 1st gen RAV4.

The above was not really the point I'm wishing to make at all. Yes it's a different chemistry. No, GM was not to be trusted. The old RAV4 EV, regardless of the fact that it utilizes a different chemistry from the current generation many here have, serves not as an example of what your new RAV4 EV may do, but rather as an example to a much larger, more significant audience – the world of ICE users who are skeptical of EVs. Don't dismiss the 1st generation's significance simply because it's not the latest model and runs with NiMHi. Points on cooling notwithstanding, there is expectation for the newer chemistry to exceed the older one in performance. It's best to root for high miles and proven reliability on the original, the highest of any EVs on the road, as a kind EV precedent on which to stand and proclaim to the world: "Look, here, the evidence you may need is this....and if the old models ran 160K miles, we expect the current tech to do even better, and to continue improving."
 
Tony, thanks for your insight.

I think the reasonable expectation is for the newer battery chemistry to be more advanced and reliable, and having less degradation.

Maybe it's all these things, but after reading the 1st Gen reports, it gives you pause.
 
silas said:
While the 1st gen RAV4 had impressive longevity, it would be good to keep in mind that these vehicles used a different type of battery chemistry. I don't think that anyone had expected this type of performance given what GM said about the EV1. Please don't read too much into it. I would look at the results achieved by the Tesla Roadster or the Model S. The 2nd gen RAV4 shares many more traits and drivetrain components with those vehicles than with the 1st gen RAV4.

The above was not really the point I'm wishing to make at all. Yes it's a different chemistry. No, GM was not to be trusted. The old RAV4 EV, regardless of the fact that it utilizes a different chemistry from the current generation many here have, serves not as an example of what your new RAV4 EV may do, but rather as an example to a much larger, more significant audience – the world of ICE users who are skeptical of EVs. Don't dismiss the 1st generation's significance simply because it's not the latest model and runs with NiMHi. Points on cooling notwithstanding, there is expectation for the newer chemistry to exceed the older one in performance. It's best to root for high miles and proven reliability on the original, the highest of any EVs on the road, as a kind EV precedent on which to stand and proclaim to the world: "Look, here, the evidence you may need is this....and if the old models ran 160K miles, we expect the current tech to do even better, and to continue improving."
No, I don't agree. The 1st gen RAV4 was a low-volume vehicle, essentially a compliance car, and it had a number of things that you would not find on a large-volume mass-produced vehicle. You cannot expect better longevity from the new lithium-ion packs, particularly not in automotive applications, where heat is a significant problem. When you look at the numbers Tony posted above, you will see that some of the 2nd gen RAV4 are already seeing greater capacity loss than what the 1st gen owners reported.

While subjective claims about range loss or the lack thereof are often not reliable, I would suggest that you took this under consideration. You started this thread by asking about the mileage performance of the 1st gen RAV4 without really specifying what you were trying to accomplish. I took time and effort to respond, to which you replied that you already knew that. When we go back to address your actual question about longevity, you dismiss it based on the belief that a 2nd generation vehicle must simply perform better than a 1st generation vehicle. This is not true, and there are other examples of this elsewhere.

While the 2nd gen RAV4 is arguably better in several respects and has better performance, I would not expect better battery longevity or less range loss than what 1st generation owners have reported. You are obviously free to believe whatever you like, but since you raised these questions, I thought they deserved an answer, which I tried to provide. I think I'm done here. Best of luck.
 
"When we go back to address your actual question about longevity, you dismiss it based on the belief that a 2nd generation vehicle must simply perform better than a 1st generation vehicle..." (surfingslovak)

It may have come across that I was interested in the longevity of 2nd generation RAV4 EVs, but my inquiry at the beginning referred to the 1st generation. It's unfortunate that the 2nd gen shows clear indications of lesser performance over the long term. Laypeople, however, are likely to presume improvements in terms of battery longevity, from one model to the next, though the actual performance will not, ultimately, demonstrate that. They've yet to learn of this, so let's not discount the gains in public perception to be had from the original. My initial assertion, that the 1st generation is a model of longevity for EVs in the public, holds greater validity when comparing it with the 2nd gen's track record to date. In EV advocacy, it's essential to not let these examples go unnoticed.

Thank you for highlighting the downsides of the lithium battery's longevity. Nevertheless, leveraging gen 1's performance record, is certainly of value. I concede that it would be inaccurate to suggest the newer RAV offers better longevity. Again, my primary interest in opening up the thread was in the value of publicizing the highest mileage RAV4 EVs, which are, necessarily 1st gen. I'm sure this is quite clear now.
 
There will be RAV4 EV's (second-generation) in the future that will most definitely go hundreds of thousands of miles.

If they are still using the original battery cells, then they can likely expect over 30% loss of battery capacity.

Since the car has a 140 mile freeway range when new, then a 30% loss still puts it near to being a 100 mile range vehicle.
 
Maybe nobody knows, but do you think the our 2nd Gen batteries will continue to degrade over the years, but then at some point (~30% loss) really slow down its degrade rate?

Hypothetically, if you had 500k miles, maybe you will only make it to your local convience store before turtling, but at the same time only take 15 min to recharge. :p
 
The hardest part of getting to 200,000+ will be resisting the temptation to trade for improved technology.
 
sqwalker said:
Maybe nobody knows, but do you think the our 2nd Gen batteries will continue to degrade over the years, but then at some point (~30% loss) really slow down its degrade rate?

Hypothetically, if you had 500k miles, maybe you will only make it to your local convience store before turtling, but at the same time only take 15 min to recharge. :p

All lithium batteries will continue to degrade, and the internal impedance will continue to rise.

I do not believe it will slow down, and at 30% - 50% degradation, the degradation rate will significantly increase until the battery is no longer useable.

I doubt 500,000 miles is possible with the original cells, but 200,000 miles is probably very doable.

The cells literally just "pop out" and can be swapped for replacement 18650 cells.
 
The cells literally just "pop out" and can be swapped for replacement 18650 cells.
Ah, this is good to hear. Not that I actually plan to keep my RAV4 EV 200k miles or anything, but I just love hearing, reading, and learning about the BEV technology. Thanks Tony.

Like many, in 2-4 years I expect to sell this and purchase a longer range BEV (hopefully the Tesla model 3).
 
The mere existence of a BEV with 200,000 miles on it, will speak volumes about the potential of EVs to replace ICEs.
 
silas said:
The mere existence of a BEV with 200,000 miles on it, will speak volumes about the potential of EVs to replace ICEs.
Maybe... but consumer and light/medium-duty commercial ICEVs (I can't speak to diesel big rig trucks) can last a long time too, in terms of miles. See below, for example.

http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=377048#p377048

BTW, the crazy high mileage Prius-family driver (2 fas 4 u) got a Prius v wagon in Jan 2012 (http://priuschat.com/threads/299-999-mile-club.79235/page-30#post-1457248) after trading in his 465K mile 09 Prius. Unfortunately, that '12 Prius v didn't hold up as well. He had engine problems and replaced the engine (at ~350K miles?: http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-v-300-000-miles-club.137330/page-8#post-2099011) but eventually had some serious problems and retired that one at 369K miles (http://priuschat.com/threads/prius-v-300-000-miles-club.137330/page-10#post-2113036) in Dec 2014.
 
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