2012 or 2013???

Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

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Dsinned

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Are all RAV4 EVs sold so far, model year 2012 or 2013??? The car was introduced late in the 2012 MY, (traditionally ending in September), but why didn't Toyota just skip to 2013?
 
TonyWilliams said:
They lose about $10,000 per each of the 2600 they will build.

Plus, "we" gain an additional $10,000 on every one they sell due to the federal tax credit and CA Rebate. :mrgreen:
 
"They lose about $10,000 per each of the 2600 they will build."

Tony, where did you learn that? I am shocked that Toyota loses that much with the vehicle being priced at $50K. Did you get the $10K number from a reputable source?
 
RavTesla said:
"They lose about $10,000 per each of the 2600 they will build."

Tony, where did you learn that? I am shocked that Toyota loses that much with the vehicle being priced at $50K. Did you get the $10K number from a reputable source?

Yes, Toyota in Japan. Google it.

They aren't building to save the planet, or provide you with a pretty good EV. The goal is to sell millions of profitable oil burners in California, and $26 million must be a bargain compared to buying CARB credits.

Google CARB zero emission vehicle requirements.

Also, they didn't hire Tesla because it was cheap or smart. They banged out a running model in under 4 months, and Toyota only had to write a $100 million check.
 
Tony, the RAV4 EV doesn't feel like an afterthought. It seems that Toyota & Tesla took the job seriously, even if they elected to take the easiest, simplest, and/or fastest route to get there.

Sad, though. It sure sounds like the electric car is having problems with math. Without CA forcing the issue, why would Toyota want to sell a $50,000 RAV4 EV that costs them $60,000 to build? They wouldn't. When a $26,000 gasoline vehicle costs $60,000 to make in an electric version (and effectively gets to the consumer at $40,000+), there is a problem.

I really want Tesla to succeed. I think their technology is fantastic, and I feel really fortunate to be driving the RAV4 EV. I'm a big fan. I just wish Toyota was making some money on it and was excited about the product they are selling.
 
If you ask me, I think Toyota has a "halo EV" in the RAV4 EV, with great potential for even better things to come. They are far more well known for the Prius Hybrid, but that is not a ZEV and even at ~50mpg, is no where near as energy efficient as this 4000 pound Compact SUV. Even their 1st generation RAV4 EV was considered by most an unexpected success. Regardless of Toyota's future plans for their purely electric RAV4 and possibilities for other future EVs in general, I think they are on the right track and "got it right" for us lucky Californians to own/lease and drive this phenomenal "performance oriented" ZEV. I think it is a winning combination to have nearly the performance of a base model Tesla S, but at a substantially lower price, AND practicality of an CUV appealing to middle class families. It's still an expensive car, exclusively sold in CA, and wide spread appeal will suffer for that reason. It's in a very tiny niche market for sure, but I read somewhere that the new 2012 RAV4 EV customer demographics are "highly intelligent, high tech, consumers who pride themselves upon being Early Adapters". RIGHT ON, because that's definitely me, and I believe all of us on this forum as well. :mrgreen:
 
RavTesla said:
Tony, the RAV4 EV doesn't feel like an afterthought. It seems that Toyota & Tesla took the job seriously, even if they elected to take the easiest, simplest, and/or fastest route to get there.

It's not an afterthought at all, nor did I suggest that. They thought of the best way to meet their California zero emission mandate. This is it.

Read this tutorial:

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/factsheets/zev_tutorial.pdf

It will answer lots of questions. In a nutshell, if Toyota makes 0.79% of it production with ZEV's, that is one part of the overall compliance with CARB rules.

330,000 cars multiplied by 0.79% equals 2607 cars.


Sad, though. It sure sounds like the electric car is having problems with math. Without CA forcing the issue, why would Toyota want to sell a $50,000 RAV4 EV that costs them $60,000 to build? They wouldn't. When a $26,000 gasoline vehicle costs $60,000 to make in an electric version (and effectively gets to the consumer at $40,000+), there is a problem.


It only cost this huge amount because they contracted Tesla, and it's a limited production run. Tesla isn't selling $57,000 Model S at a loss, which is virtually the same drive train in the Rav4.
 
It only cost this huge amount because they contracted Tesla, and it's a limited production run. Tesla isn't selling $57,000 Model S at a loss, which is virtually the same drive train in the Rav4.

I'm not sure how much profit Tesla is making per (base model) $57,000 Model S they are selling, but it may not be much. On November 5th of this year, they announced that they were halfway to achieving a gross margin of 25% (would that suggest 12.5% ?), and this would include the much more expensive "Signature" models (and I suppose some leftover Roadsters), where one would presume they made greater margins. Then, yesterday, they announced that there would be a price increase for the Model S (http://www.plugincars.com/tesla-raises-model-s-prices-reservation-holders-are-home-free-125420.html), perhaps riding the coattails of their recent Automobile Magazine and Motor Trend awards. It's true they aren't likely selling any of these models at a loss, but these are still expensive cars, and they are getting more expensive.

I agree, of course, that Toyota is doing the RAV4 EV because they have to to comply with the CARB rules. No question about it. This vehicle wouldn't exist without the ZEV mandate. My point is that the RAV4 EV has surprised me by how much fun it is to drive, how I don't have range anxiety, how it is much less expensive to refuel/recharge than a gasoline powered vehicle, etc. From these forum postings, it looks like many RAV4 EV purchasers are already veteran EV owners coming from other brands/models. This is the first EV for me, and color me impressed. I want more people to both experience the RAV4 EV and be able to purchase it… or a car like it.

It is fun to spread the gospel and evangelize. I just can't understand how the math will work to get a vehicle like this to mass market adoption (say a $25k-30k price point) any time soon. I want this technology to succeed for many reasons, and this particular vehicle is a compelling alternative to ICE options. Compelling… except for the price. And this is a price where Toyota is losing $10K per vehicle and the government is pitching in an additional $10K of their own. In other words, this vehicle will likely NEVER be sold at a profit.

Good for California to push the issue with the CARB rules and ZEV mandates. And good for some of the other states to be following in CA's footsteps. At the end of the day, however, the training wheels need to come off and the governmental boost to the EV has to become self-sustaining in the marketplace if it is to stick.

Toyota recently announced that they are "beefing up" their hybrid lineup, but not a lot in the way of significant plans for EVs:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358804578015543548693774.html

It seems like Nissan is putting a lot of eggs in the Leaf basket, and of course Tesla has all of their eggs there. I tend to look to Tesla to lead this charge, because they have some seriously impressive technology, they are winning major automobile awards, and they seem to be press darlings.

I'm pretty excited that I get to enjoy Tesla technology in the RAV4 EV. And I only hope that Toyota (and the other major automobile players) don't rest on their ICE laurels. Look at what happened to the music industry in the past 10 years. Or what's happening to the PC industry now with the smartphone and the tablet. Technology moves forward. As Andy Grove said, "only the paranoid survive." The ICE-based automobile industry may be next. It takes one press on the accelerator in the RAV4 EV in sport mode to get the uninitiated to say, "Hey, I want one of these."
 
RavTesla said:
Toyota recently announced that they are "beefing up" their hybrid lineup, but not a lot in the way of significant plans for EVs:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444358804578015543548693774.html

Oh, they did indeed announce their plans for Toyota EV's... they decided not to make any (Rav4 EV doesn't even register in the millions of cars Toyota builds).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/dalebuss/2012/09/24/toyota-calls-emperor-on-no-clothes-essentially-kills-evs/

"Drawing a dramatic line in the sand for a global auto industry that has continued to invest heavily in all-electric vehicles, a top Toyota executive today simply said what a lot of people are thinking: EVs don’t make business or financial sense at this point."

"And then Toyota Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, also head of Toyota R&D, announced in Japan that the company was backing up its dramatic conclusion with equally decisive action: Toyota killed plans for a volume launch of its second all-electric car, the eQ, a version of the iQ minicar, and said that it hopes for only 2,600 sales worldwide of its other EV, a RAV4 version, over the next three years."
 
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