Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

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 Post subject: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Pottstown, PA
I am a Pennsylvania resident who recently leased a Nissan Leaf for my fiance. We love the car so much that we started looking for another EV with more cargo room and longer range. So, I decided to look into the Rav4 EV. To my dismay, the Rav4 EV is only available in Cali. And local dealerships near me couldn't even so much as order one for me. Then I hear about some horror stories about dealers refusing to pay out-of-state dealerships for warranty service or even provide parts. I explored the possibility of purchasing a used one thinking there is no way Toyota could prevent me from bringing the vehicle home with me but even then I only found one dealer (in San Francisco) willing to sell me one and ship it to me but they couldn't guarantee I could get it serviced where I lived. I know that Toyota only produced a small number of these vehicles because they are costly to manufacture. But why restrict those few vehicles to one region? And what happens to a Cali resident who purchases the Rav4 EV and moves out of state? Are they equally as screwed? My point is this, I can understand why these cars built in small numbers, however, if you are going to sell the car you should stand behind your product. You should be able to purchase the vehicle regardless of where you live and have equal access to parts and service. If Toyota does not want to stand behind their vehicle then they should not have built it. I welcome any thoughts on this subject.

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2013 Nissan Leaf S
Tesla Model S (hopefully one day I will own one)
Rav4 EV (also hopeful that is if Toyota allows the vehicle in my state)
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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 04, 2013 3:30 pm
Posts: 76
You have no idea how much Toyota is pissing me off with all these shenanigans, to the point I will probably never buy a Toyota again. I really wanted one, but gave up after finding out how they are working so hard on not supporting out-of-state buyers.

It's a compliance car, so we'll just have to accept/deal with it, and show our frustration by not buying a Toyota.


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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:12 pm 
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Location: Clarksburg, MD
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=835&p=10080#p10080


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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:35 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 09, 2013 4:44 am
Posts: 60
How did they treat Rav4 EV generation 1s? What kind of warranty/service could people expect on that over the life of the car?

At some point, it becomes less about getting the "free" warranty service as about getting ANY service at all... I sure hope someone will be able to fix my car for a reasonable amount of $$$ when it needs some work.


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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:44 pm
Posts: 278
Location: SF Bay Area
We don't sell anything to people that call California "Cali". Frowned upon in this establishment!

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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:57 am
Posts: 21
Very true.

Couple of thoughts... someone posted that the $7500 Federal credit comes from taxes from people in all 50 states but only a few states population benefit (doesn't seem equitable)... also, Honda (compliance king) currently leases in 8 or 9 states... certainly Toyota, Fiat, GM (Spark) could do the same the least... not even asking them to go nationwide like Ford (I think), Nissan, Tesla, or SMART (with its limitations and all). Those same CARB 8 or 9 states came out a few weeks ago saying they plan to meet EV sales by 20xx.. well how are these politicians/regulators going to do that if the car companies won't even sell/lease the EV there right now? and they want to use your taxpayer money to invest more charging stations and infrastructure? maybe you guys back East should write those politicians/regulators and ask why they are throwing good money after bad! I mean, I know politicians/regulators are great at spending other people's money but... (you are in PA but that's close enough to NJ where you could theoretically lease/buy car in NJ and have it serviced there if needed)

Wonder how much of this limited availability is due to dealership pressure... an EV sold is one less ICE or PHEV or Hybrid being sold. $$$ talks.

And with BMW i3 coming out and going nationwide, if it does take off in sales, would the compliance car manufacturers feel embarrassed or pressured enough to try to do the same? Or are they still hanging their hats on the mythical hydrogen fuel cell car (which sounds pretty awesome but will it be available in my life time -- infrastructure and all.. not like I have hydrogen pump sitting in my house and so it means filling up at hydrogen stations and how easy is it to install these pumps all over to make the hydrogen car feasible for the average driver?).


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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:10 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Pottstown, PA
EVlearner -

You do make a valid point! Collectively all of our tax dollars go into the $7500 rebate why shouldn't we be allowed to purchase the vehicle without any restrictions? And you are absolutely right, these dealerships are under some kind of pressure from Toyota. Every local dealership I have spoken to all get a deflated sound in their voice when they tell me that they are not "allowed" to sell the car outside of California. I even called Toyota and the person on the phone told me some cock and bull story about the lack of charging stations outside of California as if to say that there isn't just a small possibility of charging the vehicle at home (which is what I do with my Nissan Leaf). The stories I've heard has been just awful, they won't pay the dealers for any warranty service nor supply parts. If Toyota is not careful they will damage their reputation similar to what GM did with the EV1.

If there is a small glimmer of hope to take comfort in, it is that I did find a dealer who is willing to sell and ship the Rav4 EV for me but they were clear about the risks involved with such a venture. Stating in so many words that I would basically be on my own with the vehicle.

_________________
_________________________________________________________
2013 Nissan Leaf S
Tesla Model S (hopefully one day I will own one)
Rav4 EV (also hopeful that is if Toyota allows the vehicle in my state)
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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:15 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:44 pm
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Location: SF Bay Area
You can buy a LEAF and get the $7500 rebate. The BMW is really going to be an overpriced green badge IMO. The RAV is very limited production so it is not as though 50K are available only in CA leaving everyone else cut out. Since Toyota looses tens of thousands per car should they really sell it everywhere? I think it's nonsense to expect that they should sell more of these Tesla co-marketing liability, green washing EVs then they desire. It is a free market and if they were making money selling them you can bet they would be available to buy in every state. I would not be shocked if each car cost more than $100K to produce. They should sell then everywhere and every dealer should pony up to service them just because we have a funded tax credit, not a rebate. Remember you must owe taxes to get the rebate and this does not entitle anyone to force a company to sell a product in their state, particularly one they bleed on. Toyota does not sell the RAV to make money, that is not what this car is about it is all about PR and crafty back scratching deals.

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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:59 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:13 pm
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Location: Berkeley, CA
I really think this has been gone over - but since the horse is dead, it won't mind.

Toyota is NOT being a bad guy, they are just being a business, responding to the legally mandated requirements to continue to do business in the state of California. This is the result of decades of legislative effort to reduce emissions and improve efficiency. And even to improve safety. Yes, we pay alot extra for gas, and have had to deal with a variety of engine problems from that. We've required higher fuel efficiency in this state, which has led to immense spending by car manufacturers on improvements in efficiency while still meeting air quality standards. This has been a long, expensive, and hard fought effort on the part of many citizens of this state, which has indirectly led to much safer and more efficient cars throughout the US. I haven't heard it, but I'll say it to all of you in the other 49 states - YOU'RE WELCOME.

Now, as a result of all that effort, auto makers have been forced to produce and then sell IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA - emphasis required - a certain percentage of vehicles, a certain physical number, in order to continue selling any their other cars here. They can probably buy their way out, but Toyota saw the opportunity to do a little business with and maybe learn a bit from another company, Tesla, and see what kind of engineering and business opportunities might arise. This is a very, very, very expensive test for them - its what they must do to comply with the law, and since it is costing them so much, they really want to do absolutely no more than what they have to. Can anyone blame them? It would be great if they had the social conscience to do alot more, but go ahead and rate all automotive manufacturers on a social conscience scale and we can talk about where they might land.

Tesla does not want to support or promote the Rav4 - they just got paid for a basic battery pack and motor, and thats about it. Toyota has a big investment in those parts - probably more than they are selling them for - and they aren't going to make that up in volume. They know there is the very real possibility ( as clearly documented on this site ) of unusual problems, with unique knowledge and expertise to troubleshoot, diagnose, and repair. They made the VERY intelligent decision to restrict the number of dealers who sell the vehicle, and therefore reduce the number of specially trained technicians ( or at least minimize the distance those technicians would need to travel ) in order to provide a reasonable ( I did not say outstanding ) level of service for those vehicles. They are selling most of them on a lease basis, so that if problems mount or technology improves, the purchasers of these vehicles can walk away from them and purchase something new.

I completely agree that the Rav4 EV is an outstanding vehicle, and am really happy to have one. But I disagree with the assertions that Toyota is actually evil, or has some legal or moral responsibility to everyone in the US with each car they build. My local Toyota dealer, who has been servicing our other 3 Toyotas for the last 20 year won't even touch the EV! Toyota apparently feels that fuel cells are gonna be a better solution. I just don't know if thats a good bet. But Toyota is just a huge corporation, responding to the balance between customer desires, mandated requirements, and stockholder profits. What if they made a deal with Tesla to continue producing the Rav4 indefinitely, but priced it at a level that covered all their costs and gave a decent return to their stockholders - say 69K - and then made them available all over the US, maybe the world. Would you still be as hot about running out and buying one? That would be much closer to the real number from what I read - still alot cheaper than the X, or even the S, but still alot more than an ICE Rav -

Keep putting pressure on Toyota to make more EVs available - but do the same to Ford, Chevrolet, Volkswagen, BMW, Honda, Mitsubishi, etc, etc, etc. If an EV Passport were available, I'd very seriously consider that. And i still want an EV pick-up! 60 miles range carrying ¾ ton would be IDEAL!!! Oh - and have it recharge at 50a from a Tempower box on a jobsite -

So bottom line - they are providing the minimum required vehicles to meet requirements as set by law - no more. They are trying to lose as little money on them as possible. They are collecting some data on usage, getting some marketing data, testing some technology agreements out, and not much more than that. There are maybe a couple million of us who have the opportunity to take advantage of this, but only 2600 who can.

Sorry it doesn't work for some of you - but you really shouldn't take it quite so personally. Exercise your options as American consumers, and shop around and buy something else - or, buy the Rav4, and figure you're still coming out a good 20+ grand less than it costs to build, and be happy with that. But if you really need to blame someone, blame your state governments for not mandating better safety, better economy, and much lower emissions for the last 40 years. You can start now -


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 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:49 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:47 pm
Posts: 144
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Very well said Tadol.
I'm with you in every point.

And what makes California special, is the number of car buyers.
So toyota is willing to LOSE some, for the privilege of selling to 1/3 of the US population.

If it was Rhode Island ( where i used to live) that passed this laws, i doubt that we'll ever see a RAV4 EV.

Toyota is selling hybrids and plug in hybrids primarily. And soon, FCEVs
So i don't expect them to STAND BEHIND their EVs.

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