Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

It is currently Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:20 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:25 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Pottstown, PA
For the record, my issue is not so much that Toyota only sells the rav4 ev in California or that they make a limited number of them. I'm more concerned with the lack of support outside of California. California is only state that has authorized dealers to service the rav4 ev (although those dealers maybe few) but if you are out of state you have zero support. Look, I understand there is a business side to this and Toyota must do what's best for their company, however, it would be nice if they had better support for out of staters even if it's at the owners expense.

_________________
_________________________________________________________
2013 Nissan Leaf S
Tesla Model S (hopefully one day I will own one)
Rav4 EV (also hopeful that is if Toyota allows the vehicle in my state)
_________________________________________________________


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:05 am
Posts: 311
I think part of the issue here is the cost for a dealership to be part of the EV program. I know here in my local Ventura area one dealership service manager told me that they (Ventura Toyota) didn't want to be part of the EV program... that it was going to cost the dealership around $100K to be EV certified. Part of this cost was the flooring of a Rav4 EV ($50K) and the rest of the cost was the training of EV technicians as well as purchasing EV specific diagnostic and service equipment.

When I purchased my Rav4 EV at a neighboring dealership... DCH Toyota of Oxnard, the salesman told me that the cost of being a certified EV dealership was more easily absorbed by being a DCH corporate dealership and not a smaller privately owned retailer.

These dealerships are not factory owned and are in the business to make a profit. It does not surprise me to see some dealerships in California not participating in the program. Given the small sales outside of a few volume dealerships I think the profits are very low on this car. Out of state dealerships not willing to invest in the service training and equipment to service one or two vehicles doesn't surprise me.

_________________
2012 Blizzard Pearl Rav4 EV - Repurchased by Toyota
ClipperCreek CS-60 EVSE now for sale
Open EVSE 30 Amp


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:36 pm 
Offline
Site Moderator

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:44 pm
Posts: 278
Location: SF Bay Area
dmw183 wrote:
For the record, my issue is not so much that Toyota only sells the rav4 ev in California or that they make a limited number of them. I'm more concerned with the lack of support outside of California. California is only state that has authorized dealers to service the rav4 ev (although those dealers maybe few) but if you are out of state you have zero support. Look, I understand there is a business side to this and Toyota must do what's best for their company, however, it would be nice if they had better support for out of staters even if it's at the owners expense.



This makes absolutely no sense, the car is only sold in CA, why would Toyota or a dealer outside CA set up support in the hopes of perhaps supporting one or no cars. Even if it cost them only $100 there is no incentive. I'm sure if you paid for all the dealer tools, lift, setup, training, etc then you would get service but it would cost less to ship your car to CA and back many times over.

_________________
2013 RAV4
Open EVSE 50A
portable 120/240V Panasonic EVSE www.evseupgrade.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1591
Location: Los Altos, CA
My understanding is that some out of state technicians have paid to be EV certified out of their own pockets. If they buy the EV specific tools too, why should Toyota refuse to pay a willing out of state dealer to do Warranty work?

There are several overlapping issues here.
1. Toyota getting credit for selling the required quantity of vehicles that they produced.
2. Toyota limiting their costs to service a small number of customers.
3. The effectiveness of Toyota's policies to achieve #1, #2 above.

Personally, I have no problem with Toyota doing what they have to in order to get full CARB credit for the cars that they produce. If they have to get the car registered in CA to get full credit, then they should just make that a requirement. Obviously there are legal limitations as to what they can require, but if they have to crank up the invoice and MSRP prices and give rebates to cars registered in CA, then so be it. If someone moves the car after the initial sale and registration, so be it - Toyota still got full credit for the sale.

So, now, what about after the sale? Since they set up the EV Certified program, it seems that any dealership that is not certified has every right to refuse to service EVs. Fine. I don't think anyone is complaining about dealers that don't want to do the service. However, if a dealer is willing to get people trained and accept the standard reimbursement rate for warranty work, there should be no difference to Toyota where the dealership is located. Also, there is no reason to limit parts distribution if somebody is willing to pay the listed price. I also think it would be reasonable for Toyota to request reimbursement for additional actual shipping cost for parts sent out of state. By the same logic, charging travel expense for a Tesla technician to travel out of state would also be a reasonable request. The owner could then decide if it is cheaper to ship the car to a EV Certified dealer in CA, or if they want to pay the travel expense - IF that is actually required after diagnosis by a local technician.

My main problem with Toyota regarding the RAV4 EV is the fact that they are making shady-feeling indirect policies to try to achieve their goals. I think it would be much better if they made transparent and direct policies that are compliant with existing consumer protection law.

_________________
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar | Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 Limestone Gray e-Golf LE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3861
Location: San Diego
miimura wrote:
My main problem with Toyota regarding the RAV4 EV is the fact that they are making shady-feeling indirect policies to try to achieve their goals. I think it would be much better if they made transparent and direct policies that are compliant with existing consumer protection law.


There's nothing shady about selling the car in California only. What if they sold it in the whole USA, but not Canada? Would that also be shady?

Toyota is neither quiet, nor shady, about their lack of fondness for EV's. The very highest levels of the company have made their position very clear.

They announced the production would be 2600 from almost day one. They announced California only, and are now enforcing California only through the tools they have.

To my knowledge, they comply with all the laws, and exercise their rights to sell cars where needed to comply. I might argue that out-of-state warranty should apply under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty, but I'm sure their lawyers think this is not required.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:13 pm
Posts: 23
Location: Clarksburg, MD
I think there was some fine print that stated... "Can not be available only in CA." Wouldn't that be a bitch. No CARB credits at all???


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:15 am 
Offline
Site Moderator

Joined: Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:44 pm
Posts: 278
Location: SF Bay Area
miimura wrote:
My understanding is that some out of state technicians have paid to be EV certified out of their own pockets. If they buy the EV specific tools too, why should Toyota refuse to pay a willing out of state dealer to do Warranty work?

There are several overlapping issues here.
1. Toyota getting credit for selling the required quantity of vehicles that they produced.
2. Toyota limiting their costs to service a small number of customers.
3. The effectiveness of Toyota's policies to achieve #1, #2 above.

Personally, I have no problem with Toyota doing what they have to in order to get full CARB credit for the cars that they produce. If they have to get the car registered in CA to get full credit, then they should just make that a requirement. Obviously there are legal limitations as to what they can require, but if they have to crank up the invoice and MSRP prices and give rebates to cars registered in CA, then so be it. If someone moves the car after the initial sale and registration, so be it - Toyota still got full credit for the sale.

So, now, what about after the sale? Since they set up the EV Certified program, it seems that any dealership that is not certified has every right to refuse to service EVs. Fine. I don't think anyone is complaining about dealers that don't want to do the service. However, if a dealer is willing to get people trained and accept the standard reimbursement rate for warranty work, there should be no difference to Toyota where the dealership is located. Also, there is no reason to limit parts distribution if somebody is willing to pay the listed price. I also think it would be reasonable for Toyota to request reimbursement for additional actual shipping cost for parts sent out of state. By the same logic, charging travel expense for a Tesla technician to travel out of state would also be a reasonable request. The owner could then decide if it is cheaper to ship the car to a EV Certified dealer in CA, or if they want to pay the travel expense - IF that is actually required after diagnosis by a local technician.

My main problem with Toyota regarding the RAV4 EV is the fact that they are making shady-feeling indirect policies to try to achieve their goals. I think it would be much better if they made transparent and direct policies that are compliant with existing consumer protection law.



Perhaps they should pay your lease payment as well? May as well put that on the list.

_________________
2013 RAV4
Open EVSE 50A
portable 120/240V Panasonic EVSE www.evseupgrade.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:29 pm
Posts: 22
@Tadol
I agree with some of your points but same argument can be made with GM's reaction to EV1 as well. There are some minor points differentiate between what they do but you can say corporations are inherently evil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1591
Location: Los Altos, CA
TonyWilliams wrote:
miimura wrote:
My main problem with Toyota regarding the RAV4 EV is the fact that they are making shady-feeling indirect policies to try to achieve their goals. I think it would be much better if they made transparent and direct policies that are compliant with existing consumer protection law.


There's nothing shady about selling the car in California only. What if they sold it in the whole USA, but not Canada? Would that also be shady?

Toyota is neither quiet, nor shady, about their lack of fondness for EV's. The very highest levels of the company have made their position very clear.

They announced the production would be 2600 from almost day one. They announced California only, and are now enforcing California only through the tools they have.

To my knowledge, they comply with all the laws, and exercise their rights to sell cars where needed to comply. I might argue that out-of-state warranty should apply under the Magnuson–Moss Warranty, but I'm sure their lawyers think this is not required.
To me the shady part is the intentional uncertainty about the warranty. Like I said before, it looks like they're making good on the warranty but they seem to want that FUD to be out there to discourage out-of-state use.

The non-payment of Toyota Care out of state is petty also. That one is pretty iron-clad because it's stated up front as a condition of this freebie, but it has no incremental cost to Toyota to pay a dealer in another state.

_________________
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar | Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 Limestone Gray e-Golf LE


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Toyota needs to stand behind their Rav4 EV
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 5:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:13 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Berkeley, CA
quartzav wrote:
@Tadol
I agree with some of your points but same argument can be made with GM's reaction to EV1 as well. There are some minor points differentiate between what they do but you can say corporations are inherently evil.


Getting a bit off topic from the EV, but I disagree about using terms like good or evil when referring to a business structure. Corporations are, in many ways, the simplest form of business entity, because their motivations are quite pure and extremely easy to understand and control. They want to make as much money with as little effort as possible. We can directly affect them through legislation ( either taxation or regulation of business practices ) and by consumer awareness, by attacking them directly at that bottom line of profit and shareholder value. You can start to apply the good or evil labels only when they step outside this simple model, by declaring themselves "non-profit" or "tax exempt". At that point, you do have to be very, very cautious about them. Once they try to assume a moral stance, and remove themselves from the controls of taxation and legislation, then you have only consumer awareness to work with, and generally, that only pits the believers against the non-believers, and truth flees -

But back to EVs - thru legislation, mixed with a bit of consumer awareness, we managed to bring products to market thru the major players that they would not have developed if they had not been forced to. Its easy to find fault with them - they are (were) not perfect, but thats in keeping with every other model of this product. Our best option is to keep asking for them, buying whats available to us, supporting legislation and regulation that creates incentives for their manufacture and purchase, and the most important - change peoples attitudes towards them. Almost every person who looks at or gets a ride in my Rav has alot of the same concerns and fears about "something new" - technology, range, charging, service - the same concerns I had before i purchased mine. But they are easily addressed, and by my using it daily, it helps make it clear that it is workable, it is an acceptable alternative - heck, its a preferable alternative - and that helps raise awareness, which raises interest, which raises demand. As more get built, and the infrastructure develops for charging and service, all of the pieces start to fall into place and it all becomes a much, much easier decision -

But to think Toyota wants to kill the EV is incorrect - unless you can prove to me how killing the EV improves their bottom line. I think the questions that need to be asked are about why they all think it is going to be so much more profitable to develop the fuel cell. Maybe, thru our tax laws, or our regulatory expectations, or our lack of either, maybe we've created a business environment that is encouraging them to pursue this and not the EV. But it seems Mr. Musk sees potential with the EV, so maybe other corporate minds will start to rethink their positions?

I'm glad that I'm in a position to help just by spending my money on a product that i both enjoy and get great value from. So much easier than many environmental actions that don't have such immediate rewards and you have to scrub up afterwards - :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
© Toyota Rav4 EV Forum - part of the MyElectricCarForums.com Group