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 Post subject: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:09 am 
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[Moderator edit: related thread: viewtopic.php?p=4143#p4143]

I saw this interesting comment in an article about toyota manufacturing their hydrogen car on autobloggreen or greencarreports yesterday. The commenter charged that Toyota is building their ridiculous hydrogen car because they plan to stripmine in Australia for too dirty to burn brown coal. Then use the coal to strip off hydrogen, pump the carbon into the ground, send hydrogen tanker ships to Japan and power Japans fleet of hydrogen cars and be at the for front of the new hydrogen economy. Easy.

What. Crazy right? Or is it? Hmmm. If true, makes sense and makes me never want to have anything to do with thier H car. Which, is so fantastically complex, it looks like it will be a dealers wet dream of a car that needs ridiculous amounts of service. I'm astownded and I can't believe how complex Toyotas H car is. I also can't believe their are so many terrible choices of places to get hydrogen... Natural gas, oil, coal and No thanks. Queue the Dr Evil soundtrack.

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/brown-coal-for-a-cleaner-future-in-hybrid-cars

Did Toyota go Mad or have they been so for a while and we just pretend that Toyota is great because they made the Prius.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:47 pm 
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http://www.pcworld.com/article/3003970/ ... alive.html

Gotta wonder what Toyota is thinking.

They deliver the first Mirai with only half a tank of hydrogen (i.e., maximum driving distance of 150 miles); the closest hydrogen filling station is 20 miles away from the owner and is the ONLY station in Northern California; it costs almost $70 to fill the tank from near empty; it accelerates 0-60 in a pathetic 9 seconds; and emits the same electric whine during acceleration that some EVs do.

For the same energy (1 gal gas : 1 Kg H2), total hydrogen CO2e emissions are 28.8% more polluting than gasoline fuel. Hydrogen FCVs offer no net Green House Gas reductions when compared to EVs. Toyota and Honda are charging $60,000 for a car that performs and pollutes like a $20,000 Corolla!

So what's the advantage over BEVs? You still have to refuel at a "gas station" instead of just plugging in the car in your garage; while BEVs can get 100% green energy if the owner installs solar panels, production of hydrogen still requires natural gas which frequently require fracking; and the Mirai doesn't even drive better than an EV (quite the opposite).

I don't know how Toyota looks at this and sees a major success in its future. There's no way.


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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Blastphemy wrote:
I don't know how Toyota looks at this and sees a major success in its future. There's no way.
Toyota does not need or want a "major success" for Mirai. They just need the exact number of credits required by CARB so they can continue selling the rest of their product line.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:03 am 
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miimura wrote:
Toyota does not need or want a "major success" for Mirai. They just need the exact number of credits required by CARB so they can continue selling the rest of their product line.


I suspect that they may not sell enough Mirais (+ RAV4EVs) in 2015 to meet their CARB requirements due to fewer Mirai deliveries to CA than initially planned. I wonder if they will be buying ZEV credits from an EV manufacturer on the DL... That would make a great story!

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:27 pm 
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I think the credits are banked over several years, so any one year does not matter so much. If they have to, they can push a few more Mirais on unsuspecting and under-educated greenies in future years.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:47 pm 
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What a sad half ass/half a tank rollout. It's pathetic.
@ miimura. Unsupecting greeneies lol. In 2011 when there were no chargers for my Leaf, I could still fill up at home.

Us EV drivers should be their biggest supporters, the fact that almost none of us want to have anything to do with these Hydrogen crap cars should be eventually get through to them. After the suckers make their purchases I'm thinking sales will be flat unless some car fleet idoits step up to buy in masses.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:32 am 
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miimura wrote:
Blastphemy wrote:
I don't know how Toyota looks at this and sees a major success in its future. There's no way.
Toyota does not need or want a "major success" for Mirai. They just need the exact number of credits required by CARB so they can continue selling the rest of their product line.

This.

OP, please see viewtopic.php?f=7&t=379, re: ZEV credits for hydrogen FCEVs vs. other ZEVs. http://www.toyota.com/esq/vehicles/regu ... icles.html is from 2011.

You may want to skim http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/fa ... torial.pdf. Examples of some AT-PZEVs and enhanced AT-PZEVs at http://www.mychevysparkev.com/forum/vie ... php?p=9022.

I don't know the details, but I hear there are also strong government incentives in Japan for hydrogen FCEVs (and infrastructure?).

FWIW, I was at Tokyo Motor Show a few weeks ago. Not only did I see almost no EVs in the almost 2 weeks I was in Japan (not including the show itself, I saw 3 Leafs, 1 https://www.toyota-body.co.jp/english/products/ev.html in a car sharing spot and an i-Miev van: probably http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publis ... l0817.html), there seemed to be little emphasis on EVs and PHEVs at any booth. I also saw at least 1-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i but I was unclear if they were ICEV kei cars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car) or the EV i-Miev.

All of the automakers were mainly pushing ICEVs, be it conventional or hybrid. Mitsubishi had the Outlander PHEV. There seemed to be more floor space devoted to hydrogen FCEVs and their fueling stations there than anything EV/PHEV.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:49 am 
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cwerdna wrote:
FWIW, I was at Tokyo Motor Show a few weeks ago. Not only did I see almost no EVs in the almost 2 weeks I was in Japan (not including the show itself, I saw 3 Leafs, 1 https://www.toyota-body.co.jp/english/products/ev.html in a car sharing spot and an i-Miev van: probably http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publis ... l0817.html), there seemed to be little emphasis on EVs and PHEVs at any booth. I also saw at least 1-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i but I as unclear if they were ICEV kei cars or the EV i-Miev.


Last time I was in Japan (2013) I did notice that EVs were not that common in Tokyo and the other big cities, but I saw many in smaller towns throughout the country. Maybe because most eco-conscious city dwellers take the train and also lack parking/charging at home.

I did spot some Mazda EV prototypes in Hiroshima. I encountered a number of LEAFs and iMiEVs in Nagano-ken serving as both private vehicles and taxis (in Matsumoto). I actually noticed quite a few LEAFs on the highways when I did a week-long road trip through Kansai, Chubu, and Kanto probably owing to the proliferation of CHAdeMO stations at the already impressive rest stops. I had the opportunity to rent a LEAF but was carting four of my family members plus luggage so chose to stick with a Serena S-Hybrid.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:27 am 
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DevinL wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
FWIW, I was at Tokyo Motor Show a few weeks ago. Not only did I see almost no EVs in the almost 2 weeks I was in Japan (not including the show itself, I saw 3 Leafs, 1 https://www.toyota-body.co.jp/english/products/ev.html in a car sharing spot and an i-Miev van: probably http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/publis ... l0817.html), there seemed to be little emphasis on EVs and PHEVs at any booth. I also saw at least 1-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i but I as unclear if they were ICEV kei cars or the EV i-Miev.


Last time I was in Japan (2013) I did notice that EVs were not that common in Tokyo and the other big cities, but I saw many in smaller towns throughout the country. Maybe because most eco-conscious city dwellers take the train and also lack parking/charging at home.

I did spot some Mazda EV prototypes in Hiroshima. I encountered a number of LEAFs and iMiEVs in Nagano-ken serving as both private vehicles and taxis (in Matsumoto). I actually noticed quite a few LEAFs on the highways when I did a week-long road trip through Kansai, Chubu, and Kanto probably owing to the proliferation of CHAdeMO stations at the already impressive rest stops. I had the opportunity to rent a LEAF but was carting four of my family members plus luggage so chose to stick with a Serena S-Hybrid.

The bolded part was the hypothesis re: big cities that another Leafer had (his stay in Japan overlapped w/mine and I met up him briefly). He also saw few Leafs and EVs. I guess that makes sense since it seems like parking is scarce in cities so having parking AND charging there is probably even tougher.

FWIW, this trip to Japan, I flew to Nagasaki and made my way to Nagoya then Tokyo via train. So, I visited/stayed in places like Nagasaki, Fukuoka, Kitakyushu, Beppu, Miyajima, Himeji, Kobe, Osaka, Nagoya then Tokyo. In Beppu (not a big city), I saw 2 Leafs. My memory is foggy about the 3rd Leaf, if I even saw it. I only had about 4 days in Tokyo. The rest was elsewhere in Japan.

From TMS, there seemed to be more hybrid model choices than here in the US. Honda had more (whereas, they've basically abandoned hybrids now in the US) and so did Nissan (e.g. X-Trail hybrid and Serena S-Hybrid). It looks like the latter is just a mild hybrid, similar to GM's BAS mild-hybrid system.

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Last edited by cwerdna on Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why a hydrogen obsession for Toyota? Their mad coal plan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:33 pm 
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Hydrogen is a place for Toyota to put a foot in another game card for the future and to me does not say they are ignoring EVs. Quite the opposite as they are doing all sorts of advanced pack research and once they want to enter the EV space they will. This is an easy entry market for them and in the meantime they get all sorts of subsides to fund hydrogen research that keeps them in the game for alternatives and long range vehicles like transport, etc. They also get to attempt to distract competitors into thinking they are out of the game which is really nonsense and is only resonating with people on EV and car forums like this one. Toyota will play out this game until it's time to make a move on a new pack technology and in the meantime use subsidies to fund another game card for research that can benefit them past the silly CARB cars. EVs are not a threat to them at this time, Tesla is not threat nor is Nissan. Clearly they are waiting for what is best for them and they can jump in when they like and in the meantime continue to develop batteries in the background. Toyota would sell pig shit powered cars if it made money and anyone that thinks they are so stupid to completely disregard the EV market is drinking the cool aide from the company that defines the word hybrid, it's all comical PR not blind ignorance from the biggest car maker in the world and they reserve the unpenalized right to jump in when they choose.

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