Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:48 am 
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Location: CA
Brandy,

I was hoping you might have some insight into the leasing options for the Rav4 ev. After discussing with most dealers, they seem to be unaware that the lessee should get the $7,500 tax credit. After all, when we lease an EV, the leasing company "buys" the car on our behalf, get the $7,500 tax credit, and then lease it to the lessee. It is obvious that the lessee should benefit from the tax credit, which is intended to for EV drivers.

I'm not sure if you purchased or leased yours but any insights would be highly appreciative.

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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:40 pm 
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0 guilt wrote:
Brandy,

I was hoping you might have some insight into the leasing options for the Rav4 ev. After discussing with most dealers, they seem to be unaware that the lessee should get the $7,500 tax credit. After all, when we lease an EV, the leasing company "buys" the car on our behalf, get the $7,500 tax credit, and then lease it to the lessee. It is obvious that the lessee should benefit from the tax credit, which is intended to for EV drivers.

I'm not sure if you purchased or leased yours but any insights would be highly appreciative.


Unfortunately, nope... The tax credit goes to the buyer (leasing company, in this case). AFAIK toyota does pass something of it through to the lessee but exactly how much and under what conditions I don't know.

I did not lease. The purchase was more attractive especially given the strong incentives at the time ("Toyota cash", 0% apr, etc).


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:03 pm
Posts: 69
Location: Sacramento, CA
Aries wrote:

While I was out on the lot looking at one of the RAVs while waiting on the salesman to go fetch the key, I heard another salesman one row of cars over taking a prospect away from the RAV. The client had noticed the charger and asked about the vehicle and the salesman informed him that "they have to charge" and that "they have limited range after which you have to charge again" and then took them a couple cars over to look at a Prius!




Two things...

1. The dealers have sold tons of Prius models and so the sales staff isn't afraid that they may look stupid trying to sell something he or she knows nothing about. I'm sure all but the most sleazy are still human and want to look like they know what they're doing. It appears that the salesman you mentioned did in fact share all that he knew about the Rav4 EV.

2. The margins are better on the Prius than on our Rav4 EV. Though I wonder whether or not this salesman knew about that fact, it does make me wonder if sales managers are telling their staff to steer people into the Prius instead. I'm not aware of any dealer specific incentives to move these RAVs, and the product ignorance pretty much proves that there's not much money for the dealer here.

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2012 Classic Silver Rav4 EV (Sam)
2012 Honda Pilot
2011 Volkswagen GTI
2018 Mercedes GLC63


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:53 pm 
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Indeed so, the thing I give the dealership credit for is being super friendly and trying to help as much as they could. I have no doubt that had I asked something specific they would shuttle off to "research it". So, I definitely don't knock them there.

And my salesman specifically was a great guy and genuinely wanted to know more about the car and spent that time with me to learn when presumably he could have otherwise been out on the floor hustling more cars. Good for him and I was glad to share about the RAV and other EVs I know about.

I was just quite surprised there was no training or awareness at all. None of the people I dealt with had been ridden in the RAV. I should think that would be the first thing to do - have them all take it on a short test drive.

The funniest thing is one of the salesman didn't even know they had more than one of these on the lot. Why is that funny? Well, because one of the five cars in the lobby of the dealership was an RAV EV and it wasn't the one I was buying. Just totally unaware.


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:35 am 
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Posts: 1213
Location: San Jose, CA
The thing that occurs to me . . .

1. There are essentially no options on these cars, and so no markup to be made on things like AWD, moon roofs, roof rackets, 3rd row seating, leather seats, etc.
2. From what I've heard, there is a very slim profit margin on these cars.
3. Factory invoice is probably not much lower than the dealer's so-called invoice cost, but let's assume it is still a few K dollars under.
4. Unless the dealership is small, there must be essentially no flooring cost on the RAV4 EV because dealers are not advertising them at all.
5. I think to be an authorized RAV4 EV dealer in CA, those dealers had to shell out for service tech training and special shop tools, and maybe a Leviton charging station or two as well.

Conclusion: At current extremely attractive incentive pricing, both Toyota and the Dealers are probably losing money on all these cars, unless the true factory invoice is at least $6000 less than MSRP, not counting shipping which is passed on the buyers. Neither are the dealer and Toyota making even a few thousand bucks off of the financing, because at 0%APR, there is no finance charge to speak of!

Maybe, this is why the dealers are treating these so-called "compliance" cars like they are something they need not waste any time really trying to sell. They are just sharing the burden with Toyota to loss money on every care sold, and for this reason, they would prefer to lease them or put them into rental car service which has already happened with respect to the latter - and it seems very unusual to have purely BEV cars available as rentals at that!

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EMW JuiceBox Basic (fully optioned & customized) EVSE L2 charging station
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/TRVh161550


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm
Posts: 47
Dsinned wrote:
The thing that occurs to me . . .

1. There are essentially no options on these cars, and so no markup to be made on things like AWD, moon roofs, roof rackets, 3rd row seating, leather seats, etc.
2. From what I've heard, there is a very slim profit margin on these cars.
3. Factory invoice is probably not much lower than the dealer's so-called invoice cost, but let's assume it is still a few K dollars under.
4. Unless the dealership is small, there must be essentially no flooring cost on the RAV4 EV because dealers are not advertising them at all.
5. I think to be an authorized RAV4 EV dealer in CA, those dealers had to shell out for service tech training and special shop tools, and maybe a Leviton charging station or two as well.

Conclusion: At current extremely attractive incentive pricing, both Toyota and the Dealers are probably losing money on all these cars, unless the true factory invoice is at least $6000 less than MSRP, not counting shipping which is passed on the buyers. Neither are the dealer and Toyota making even a few thousand bucks off of the financing, because at 0%APR, there is no finance charge to speak of!

Maybe, this is why the dealers are treating these so-called "compliance" cars like they are something they need not waste any time really trying to sell. They are just sharing the burden with Toyota to loss money on every care sold, and for this reason, they would prefer to lease them or put them into rental car service which has already happened with respect to the latter - and it seems very unusual to have purely BEV cars available as rentals at that!


All probably very true!


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:10 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:16 am
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Location: CA
...feels like some moderators on these forums are on Toyota's payroll (or otherwise related: dealers, vendors etc.). I think that it's great that these forums are anonymous and let everyone voice their opinion, but I think some disclosure with this regards would be beneficial (to us, non-Toyota-related folks).

And for the actual Toyota-related users on here, please use your access/influence on Toyota HQ to convey our (prospect buyers) needs/concerns/feedback.

And the first thing of order would be to have Toyota offer a fair lease where the lessee gets to benefit from the government tax credit targeted at EV drivers.

Thanks Dsinned.

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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:40 pm 
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Just to set the record straight, I have absolutely no affiliation with Toyota or any other automakers whatsoever. I have a few casual friends that are new car salesman acquaintances, but none are relatives. My Son who happens to be an mechanic, works for Acura, but I never owned one of those. I did own a used 1978 Honda Civic though, which was my most unreliable car EVER! I have no other ties to the auto industry past or present.

Fwiw, the first new car I ever owned was a 1973 Toyota Celica ST, which was a nice sporty, affordable car at the time. I was in my early 20s and about to get married. My favorite during my mid life crisis years, would have to be any one of six Corvettes I've owned over the years (1989, 1990, 1996, 2002, 2003 and 2008), including a ZR-1 and two Z06s. My 1990 ZR-1 was rather special. I owned it for 10 years and personally drove it to an inidcated speed of 187mph!

After 45 years of owning many different cars (and motorcycles), my 2012 Chevy Volt has the honor of being the best of the best. That, and my 2004 Triumph Daytona 955si Special Edition, which I still own.

I'm just a techie kind of guy at heart, and I truly am blown away by how technologically advanced the Volt is as an electrified car. It still has a few faults, but GM got that one RIGHT! If I had acquired my RAV4 EV first, I might feel it just as good; it certainly has more practical "family" values going for it. The truth is I thoroughly enjoy all the cars and bikes I've owned, but these latest generation of EVs are pretty darn special.

Not to gloat, but that means I am "double dipping" from Uncle Sam, by getting TWO federal tax credits ($15,000), and TWO CA rebates ($4,000). I won't deny how elated I am to have "purchased" two new electric vehicles this past year. Leasing never entered my mind! :mrgreen:

After reading ALL my posts on this forum, it should be clear that I am not a big fan of Toyota or its "dealerships". In fact, I have been quite critical of my local Toyota dealership because of all the ignorance displayed by them regarding the recent price concessions not long after I bought my 2012 RAV4 EV. At time of purchase, I though I was getting an "fair" deal, only to learn less than one month later, I missed the window on both a way better price and 0% financing subsequently available from TFS. I paid almost full MSRP, and got 1.9% APR financing. Not bad in November, but absolutely HORRIBLE since early December. To add insult to injury, I traded in a (low mileage, still in great condition) 2007 Chevy Trailblazer SS for about $5k under full market value. In retrospect, rather impulsive, but after test driving the RAV4 EV, I just had to have one ASAP!

Now, due to my seemingly bad purchasing decision, I could seek to spoil the ownership experience for myself and possibly influence others similarly here, but I choose to be an advocate for this car, however anyone so chooses to acquire one, whether by purchase or LEASE. Imho, the RAV4 EV is truly a phenomenal car and this forum is the very best place to sing that song from the rooftops!

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Owner of 2012 Classic Silver RAV4 EV, 2012 Silver VOLT & 2008 Red C6 Z06
EMW JuiceBox Basic (fully optioned & customized) EVSE L2 charging station
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/TRVh161550


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:20 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:03 pm
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Location: Sacramento, CA
FWIW, I haven't seen ANY indication that anyone posting regularly here has any affiliation with Toyota. Please don't confuse my or other owner's enthusiasm for sharing the awesomeness of this car with anything other than the outspoken cheerleading of early adopters!

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2012 Classic Silver Rav4 EV (Sam)
2012 Honda Pilot
2011 Volkswagen GTI
2018 Mercedes GLC63


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 Post subject: Re: VIN numbers
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:44 am 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
Jscifres wrote:
FWIW, I haven't seen ANY indication that anyone posting regularly here has any affiliation with Toyota. Please don't confuse my or other owner's enthusiasm for sharing the awesomeness of this car with anything other than the outspoken cheerleading of early adopters!

+1 i agree

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