Recidivism

Just starting a conversation here. Once a person buys an electric car, what is the likelihood that they stay electric, versus going back to gas. In my case I've been thinking of electric cars for 6 or 7 years and the financials finally worked out for me. After 6 weeks of driving the Rav4 EV, and despite gateway ECU concerns or whatever it is... I'm expecting the screen of death at some point, but even with that I'm loving it and thinking ahead about getting another electric car in the future. But back to the main question, do you think that once a person takes the step and gets an EV they stay with it? We've been seeing a number of posts about used Rav4 EVs for sale and I wonder if those are cases where somebody tried an EV and decided it wasn't for them.

I think factors include:

Gov't Incentives. Current gov't incentives make the economics of owning an EV compelling enough for people to give it a consideration. Seriously, without tax savings, I probably wouldn't have bought any EV let alone the RAV4 (since the lease costs for competitors bake in the tax savings).

Cost of fuel: How long is a potential buyer's commute/daily travel? The more driving is involved, the greater the cost benefit goes to the EV. This is compounded by the relative volatility of gas prices. Then again, my wife commutes 2 miles roundtrip a day. Even though starting up an ICE for just 2 miles is just terribly inefficient, an EV still probably wouldn't be as economically beneficial for her. So, we're keeping a ICE car for range. Perhaps we'll get a hybrid next time around.

With regards to charge time failures, ECU gateway failures, battery degradation, etc... I see those as unique problems to the RAV4, but every car is going to have some issues like these. Hopefully, they are not design flaws and are correctable as a solution is thoroughly tested. The problem for us RAV4EV owners is that there are so few of us, I wonder if Toyota and/or Tesla sees it worth their business to do anything about it. That said, I'd rather deal with these problems than deal with broken transmissions, water pumps, O2 sensors, catalytic converters, and all those other oily things that are needed to make an ICE car go boom. The Toyota finance cash definitely put the RAV to the front of the line for me and without it, I probably would have gotten a Leaf, Focus Electric, or Fit EV. The way I see it, it's like buying a RAV4 V6 with high end trim, but never having to pay for gas or perform ICE maintenance again. Time will tell how much EV/systems maintenance will cost us and the EV failure notifications have not been too promising. I hope there is a warranty extension for those problems.

I mean, these are all current financial reasons we already know why buying an EV is awesome! I will probably buy another EV once I give this car to my daughter one day. I cherish the day that my children can grow up and never need to pump a drop of oil.

People buy a car because of the way it looks and makes them feel. The auto makers go where the money is. The auto industry, with the exception of Tesla, is doing its utmost to make electric cars unattractive. If it gets people to where they‘re going using electricity, hydrogen, natural gas or oil it’s a matter of price and convenience. Engineers and legislation can shift the balance in favor of electricity and the auto makers and people will follow. Buying a gasoline car after driving an electric car is much like buying a model T then going back to a horse and carriage.
The public is attracted to electric the car. I say this because I just saw a car carrier, on Lomita Boulevard in Torrance, with six new Teslas being home delivered.

We bought into a hybrid (Mercury Mariner Hybrid) to save gas and $$, and got hooked on the quietness when driving in EV mode, and fascinated by electric drive. So we waited for the LEAF. Once we owned the LEAF, it is "never go back" from day one. Now we have a LEAF and Rav4EV, and will never again buy a gasser, especially with Tesla making their way to affordable EV future. We are only renting a gasser for long trips now only because we can't afford the current "good enough for 100% of our usage" EV, the 250miles Tesla S w/ super charger or battery swap.

(we were waiting for Better Place, but alas, they are too in the the future too early).

But I would have to say, the Rav4ev is a good job, but the LEAF with 41kwh battery would have won for us head-to-head. The Rav4ev is good to great, but not as refined as the LEAF, IMHO. Perhaps those used Rav4ev were only there because the previous owners could upgrade to the Tesla S.

I'm staying EV myself. Unfortunately, thanks to my local Toyota dealer making it clear I'm on my own with the RAV4 EV, I was forced to hang on to my V6 (which offers similar, if not better performance, so I know how fun of a ride the RAV4 can be), while I decided to trade my Prius Plug-in for a LEAF (which hurt financially, but needed my BEV hit).

I also pre-ordered the Lit Motors C-1, so I guess I'm committed to EVs now. I look forward to the day where auto manufacturers don't go out of their way to make EVs hard to get (looking at you Toyota :evil, unattractive, and actually start properly advertise them.

I have heard of people going back to gas after bad EV experiences (such as the Nissan LEAF battery issues in AZ etc), but this is all addressable.

Nice looking bike!

amped up said:

I also pre-ordered the Lit Motors C-1

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I bought two EVs back to back in the second half of 2012. The first was my Chevy VOLT, which is now my everyday commuter car. Thus far (since last August) I have driven it 84% of time on battery power, saving a boat load of money at the pump, though I still have to use it occasionally as an "ICE" car for longer trips. Imho, GM did a truly OUTSTANDING job designing the VOLT as an "extended range" electric vehicle! For short mileage commuting it is essential a BEV with the identical benefits.

I traded in a gas guzzling 2007 Chevy Trailblazer AWD for my wife's 2012 RAV4 EV, also saving us a boat load of money at the pump. We have two dogs and the roominess of the RAV4 EV rivaled the Trailblazer. I only wish I was not so eager to buy the EV last November, when the sticker price was really, in all honesty, way too high. I negotiated as best I could back then, but in retrospect got a really terrible deal from my local Toyota dealer. There were no "incentives" back then other than the CA rebate and IRS tax credit, and could not even get any better financing from Toyota than 1.9% APR. Since November, Toyota bent over big time and offered tremendously good incentives . . . I only wish I had known this car was going to be such a poor seller, I would of saved at least $10K if only I had waited till this year to buy a RAV4 EV.

I still got $19,000 in government incentive on two EVs last year, and that was quite satisfying to cure an otherwise bad case of buyer's remorse. In addition, I now can commute every day in the diamond (HOV) lane which cuts down my driving time about 50%. There is certainly something to be said for that as well!

I still have a really nice sports car, that gets 24 mpg on the highway, but that car is now strictly for pleasure use. I think I have the best of all worlds with respect to my current vehicles, including an enormously fun to ride British sports bike. However, I hardly every use my ICE vehicles anymore.

To answer the question asked by the OP, no, I would not ever likely go back to everyday ICE vehicles. I have much better things to do than going to a gas station several times per month. I also am sick of the U.S. sacrificing so much blood and treasure to keep Arab oil flowing out of the Gulf. If everyone jumped on the EV bandwagon, our country and the lives of future generations of Americans would be immensely better off!

After investing in solar, I'm priced in. If I don't have EV(s) to drive then all that power will just go to SCE for free. Here's hoping that EVs are here to stay this time, unlike what happened in the 90s-00s.

We had an absolutely horrible experience with Nissan and he Leaf, but instead of dumping the car for a gas burner, we doubled down, buying a Volt and a RAV. The Leaf was a great drive, but just didn't pack the range we needed and couldn't stand up to Phoenix summers. I love the driving experience of electric, and I can never see myself buying another (solely) gas powered car. I've even thought of dumping our Volt for the Fiat 500e when it becomes available, since I really, really hate the sound of the gas motor kicking in.

jspearman said:

...I really, really hate the sound of the gas motor kicking in.

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Gas Anxiety much?

miimura said:

jspearman said:

...I really, really hate the sound of the gas motor kicking in.

Click to expand...

Gas Anxiety much?

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It's something only PHEV owners will be able to understand. Hearing that gas engine kick in will make your blood boil instantly (especially with the Prius Plug-in, which likes to do it for no 'obvious' reason).

As for the Fiat 500e, it isn't that much better than the LEAF, so wouldn't give up on your Volt just yet.

I don't even have my RAV4 EV yet, never owned anything but gasoline powered cars, but I think I'm done buying any car with any kind of gasoline engine. I have a PV system on my roof that over generates and I can add enough panels to my roof to power several other houses.

Since I live in Hawaii, I'm never going to need to have crazy long range, the most I've ever driven in a single day on this island is probably 150 miles (driving friends or relatives around the island). The round-the-island trip isn't even close to 150 miles, but when visitors arrive you tend to also take them to other places since it also doesn't take all day to drive "around" the island.

My daily commute to work is really short (4 miles each way). I do live up on a mountain, but it's not more than 1000' elevation. My wife has a longer commute (~20 miles each way).

The financial benefits weren't enough to solely justify me buying the RAV4 EV. I had an SUV and I wanted another SUV to replace it. This is the only EV SUV. I can't see myself spending more than $70k on a Tesla Model X, I don't really like what I've seen of the car so far, and I didn't want to wait until 2014. My wife has a minivan, so I'm hoping that there's an EV minivan in the next 4 or 5 years when we start looking to replace her car. If there isn't, then I think we'll have to find her an EV SUV.

One would think that Hawaii would be the perfect market for an EV. It probably is from the standpoint that nobody here is going on some long road trip. I think the average daily commute is probably 20-30 miles each way. I think the price of gas needs to be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 per gallon before people here will really start to look at alternative forms of transportation (EV's, riding the bus, supporting mass transit, etc.). We don't have the infrastructure yet for mass transit (rail) and with so many people in Hawaii being short-sighted, we may not even get the rail system that's been approved and partially funded by the federal government.

I think one of the main things holding back EV's (aside from the price) is the fact that most of them look weird. Most people don't want to buy a car that makes them stand out (unless it's an exotic sports car). I didn't even want to test drive a LEAF because I didn't like the way it looked. However, after driving it, I could see myself growing to tolerate it's looks. The more visually appealing a car is, the more people will want to buy it (if it's also affordable). I bet if the price of the cars were the same, and you could get any model in an EV flavor, more people would be willing to at least try an EV.

Hi madcow,
Just in time for your RAV4 EV: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/15/hawaii-heco-utilities-will-cut-charging-rates-to-encourage-evs/

That's great news. It's funny though because Hawaii doesn't offer any tax incentives anymore (they expired in 2012). We still do get the ability to ride in the HOV lane and some free metered parking at municipal meters/lots.

An FYI, if you plan on shipping a RAV4EV to Hawaii, Entune isn't supported, which means no Remote Charge Management and Remote Climate Control. The Toyota page states:

Is Entune® supported outside the United States?
Entune® functions anywhere within the continental United States, but not in Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Mexico, or Canada. Vehicles built in the US, but driven into or sold in these regions, do not support Entune®

I would think that if you get AT&T 3G coverage, it would still work anyway, but this defintely something to think about.

I'll let you know on Friday.

Good news to report. Looks like all the Entune stuff works, even in Hawaii! I've been checking the car's location from the time it was at the dealer and it stopped responding last week Thursday. I figured that was about the time it went into a container and the cell signal would have been cut off. The container ship arrived on Wednesday night. I started trying to find the vehicle from Wednesday night. I was unsuccessful, even in the early morning hours of Friday, just a few hours before I was to pickup the car.

At around 9:30am on Friday morning, I arrived at the pickup site and could clearly see my car. I decided to try to find it's location and it came up on the map very close to my location.

Since then, I've also been able to use the navigation. I've read many comments from people about not being able to enter addresses while driving. I was able to enter addresses while driving no problem (mostly when stopped at a traffic light).

So far everything is perfect.

As soon as the car starts rolling, certain inputs are inhibited.

We got the rav4 ev and love it despite it's shortcomings. I did have the gateway ecu replaced along with some other issues. Might as well get those things out of the way early on.
But at the end of the day, we love it because it is all about efficiency. When our kids were smaller, a minivan but our 4wd sienna must get about 18 mpg on average. We also have an Audi A3 TDI diesel which is awesome for mileage...on freeway, it's easily over 50 miles per gallon so for longer distance trips, we take that car...just great for freeway and very fun to drive....my mid-life crisis car of sorts that is much greener than a corvette.
ALso the A3 TDI has alot of low end torque similar to EV's so performance for me is also a big deal. We actually had a prius V before but b/c of poor off-set crash test, my wife decided to trade it in.
We just couldn't go back to a regular car after the prius's efficiency, though the prius lacked power.
So the rav4ev really is her around town car with the kids...on a busy day she does 50 miles, alot of local so the EV is perfect for that.
ANd she likes the extra power and space,though the prius V is actually huge...just not built to take impacts as well.

So we have been talking about getting rid of the sienna minivan and get a larger fuel efficient car for family trips.
Tesla X? Audi Q5 TDI coming next year here in US market (already in europe with great reviews)?

Probably just one electric car for us is enough until it matures a bit more....
Efficiency in cost and fun to drive with good power and acceleration for us is the key.

miimura,

I finally understand what you mean by the car disabling certain inputs when it starts rolling. When I first tried out the navigation, I was stopped in the parking lot. The next time I tried it, I was stopped at a light (a long one). I was messing around with the phone connection recently and couldn't figure out why it seemed like the phone was connecting and disconnecting (all the buttons on the number dialing screen would get greyed out).

I noticed that even though the buttons are disabled, I can use the voice control to dial phone calls while the car is running. Pretty good. If they didn't do that, then disabling the functions on the nav/phone screen would have probably been more dangerous as users then started looking at the small screens of their phones to make calls or navigate.