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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:26 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:42 pm
Posts: 321
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
10basetom wrote:
While looking at the 10-30 to 14-50 adapter, I came across this little nugget:

"It’s a common misconception that 10-30 outlets aren’t grounded. Actually they are grounded, but not in the typical way. Since the 10-30 outlets only have three conductors, the ground and neutral are shared, and both are present on the outlet’s L-shaped slot. ...


That explanation is a bit simplistic. The 10-30 has two hots and one neutral. If the neutral is being used as a neutral by the appliance, then it can't be a ground as it will have some return voltage on it. Now, if the outlet is wired directly from the main panel, that neutral is connected directly to ground, and using it as a ground (rather than a neutral) is perfectly fine. It's never possible to use it as neutral AND a ground at the same time. However, if the outlet is wired from a subpanel, the neutral is connected to all the other neutrals in that subpanel, and isn't connected to ground until to get back to the main panel meaning it shouldn't be used a ground.. That doesn't mean you wouldn't get away with using it as a ground...until some other load on that subpanel causes a problem.

Even more likely would simply be a marginal connection somewhere that causes either a voltage drop under load or a ground fault that the car doesn't like.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Posts: 25
alflash wrote:
As I understand it, now in your case Opion 1, not 2.
https://youtu.be/t29AjsbwXgo
This is worse.


It is option 1 :-(.

alflash wrote:
Is the correction of your message caused by a change in the "behavior" of the indicators due to a change in the type of charger, or is it the same, but only the indicators flash differently?


The correction is caused by my faulty memory. I didn't want to rely on my memory of what happened, so that's why I stood next to it and counted the number of flashes. Sure enough, it was exactly 19. This is not a good sign then? Now I'm not sure what to do, but I'll hold off on ordering the OpenEVSE. I have too many open questions with no answers right now...

1. How/why did the Tesla error code reset itself when I left my car at Irvine Toyota overnight?
2. Once this code was reset, how come the car was able to be charged at Irvine Toyota but not by my Duosida EVSE that used to work fine before?
3. What is the exact code(s) that is triggered?

Right now I think my next move will be to hire an electrician to inspect my 10-30 socket. @davewill, is there anything I should ask them to do to maximize the chances of fixing the charging issue? The worst scenario is if I need to replace the entire $3500 charging assembly, but the fact that the car was charging fine at Irvine Toyota (once Tesla error code resetted itself overnight) gives me hope that the root cause is not with the charging assembly.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:46 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Ukraine
10basetom wrote:
... The correction is caused by my faulty memory. I didn't want to rely on my memory of what happened, so that's why I stood next to it and counted the number of flashes. Sure enough, it was exactly 19. This is not a good sign then? Now I'm not sure what to do, but I'll hold off on ordering the OpenEVSE. I have too many open questions with no answers right now...

1. How/why did the Tesla error code reset itself when I left my car at Irvine Toyota overnight?
2. Once this code was reset, how come the car was able to be charged at Irvine Toyota but not by my Duosida EVSE that used to work fine before?
3. What is the exact code(s) that is triggered?
1. Unfortunately, Tesla's engineers did not use the customary rule to store fault codes in non-volatile memory. Therefore, after turning off the ignition, and then turning it on, the system does not know about previous faults.

2. In my practice of remote diagnostics, there have been cases when in one car different results of an attempt at explosive charging from different external charges.
For example, the results of one car, but when using two different charges:
Image

3. Failure / breakdown of the charging explosive can be for various reasons/causes and, accordingly, there may be different fault codes.

10basetom wrote:
... Right now I think my next move will be to hire an electrician to inspect my 10-30 socket. @davewill, is there anything I should ask them to do to maximize the chances of fixing the charging issue? The worst scenario is if I need to replace the entire $3500 charging assembly, but the fact that the car was charging fine at Irvine Toyota (once Tesla error code resetted itself overnight) gives me hope that the root cause is not with the charging assembly.
No comment, since the parameters of the battery charging system are unknown when it is NG and when OK. Therefore, there is no definitive diagnosis.
But now all versions cannot be ruled out fnd any version is eligible for consideration.

Judging by the description, the versions of the malfunction of your external charger or its supply voltage is quite probable. It would be nice to check for the presence of a pilot signal (code CHG_u005), cable serviceability (code CHG_u007), and so on.
But since they charged your car normally, the Charger Assembly malfunction is still unlikely.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Posts: 25
Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:46 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Ukraine
10basetom wrote:
Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).
Ok.
Are there such power surges in your home network ??? I do not envy your other AC powered devices...
Where did you connect the AC voltmeter? Maybe you take a video?
Yes, that's right, you need to check the charging process from another external charger and from another AC network.
And if you have your own autonomous one, then check it there (from a friend).
If there will are problems, try to repeat the charging process after several switching on / off the ignition.

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems :(


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:02 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Posts: 25
alflash wrote:
10basetom wrote:
Thanks for your input, @alflash. One more data point: when I plugged my EVSE into the 10-30, the digital volt gauge jumped around various numbers between 230 and 275 volts -- is this normal? I'm wondering if I can find some kind of volt regulator that would output a constant number of volts that would make the Rav4 happy.

Today I will bring my car to a friend's house to charge (he has a Tesla EVSE setup).
Ok.
Are there such power surges in your home network ??? I do not envy your other AC powered devices...
Where did you connect the AC voltmeter? Maybe you take a video?
Yes, that's right, you need to check the charging process from another external charger and from another AC network.
And if you have your own autonomous one, then check it there (from a friend).
If there will are problems, try to repeat the charging process after several switching on / off the ignition.

It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems :(


After a lot of trial and error, my friend and I finally discovered a solution to the charging issue that so far is 100% reliable. I will describe it below in case anyone else suffers from the 19-flash charging issue and need to charge their car in a pinch without having to take the car to a repair shop. Note that although this is a solution to the problem, it is NOT a fix of the root cause since we still don't know the root cause without access to the Tesla error codes. Since I only need to charge my car about once every other week, this solution is acceptable for me, as it takes me less than 30 seconds total to pop the hood and turn the knob to enable charging every time the issue surfaces again.

Here is how to get the car to charge again if you experience the charging issue discussed in this thread:

1. Install a 12V battery disconnect on the negative post. I picked this up for $7 today and it took about 15 minutes to install:
Image
(Source: https://www.autozone.com/batteries-star ... 620001_0_0)

2. Turn the green knob counter-clockwise to disconnect the 12V battery, wait 10 seconds or so, and turn it the other way to connect the battery again.

After this, you will be able to charge your car again. I don't know why this works, but it works. YMMV -- even though it has worked for me, it may not work in your case, so verify that the battery disconnect/reconnect trick works before investing in the battery disconnect component in step 1 (though IMHO this is still a nice thing to install to quickly do the "Tony test" to reset the range meter). Here are some observations:

- If you follow the two steps above, but instead of charging immediately, you turn on the engine and shift the gear to Drive, the charging issue rears its ugly head again. It seems shifting into "D" causes the software to enter a state that introduces this charging issue. Inversely, disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer to a state where you are able to charge again.

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery. However, so far this error has been going away after driving a few minutes.

- We didn't have the necessary adapter, so I wasn't able to plug into my friend's 14-50 outlet. We tried the only thing we could, which was to plug the stock Toyota 120V EVSE into his house. This resulted in the same charging issue (19 flashes). This suggests that the issue is in software/firmware and not faulty wiring in my home. I don't think the issue is with the cables either because what are the chances that both the 120V Toyota cable and the 240V Duosida cable malfunctions at the same time, and the Toyota EVSE has been in storage ever since I bought the Duosida a year ago. After the 120V failed to charge is when my friend had the idea to disconnect the 12V; when we reconnected the 12V we were able to charge using the 120V outlet, so we know that EVSE is fine. When we got back to my house and tried disconnecting/reconnecting the 12V battery, we were able to charge again using the 240V Duosida EVSE, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that either.

In any case, even though I still don't know the exact cause of this charging "bug", I'm satisfied with the current solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:49 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:38 pm
Posts: 25
alflash wrote:
Where did you connect the AC voltmeter?


The EVSE has a little display that shows the voltage.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:55 pm
Posts: 242
Location: Duvall, Wash.
10basetom wrote:
alflash wrote:
It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems :(


- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery.


The Toyota ECU remembers the MIL, but alflash says the Tesla ECU doesn't. That's an unusual bit of engineering, if true.

_________________
Regards,
Al Savage
2014 Rav4 EV, Shoreline Blue Pearl, #2609, first use 04Jun2014, 49k miles (Aug2017), OpenEVSE 40A. First DU replacement May2018 59k.
2018 Model 3 LR AWD, blue. 9.6kw solar
1999 E300 on B100 (sold Sep2018)
http://nissandiesel.dyndns.org


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:46 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Ukraine
10basetom wrote:
... After a lot of trial and error, my friend and I finally discovered a solution to the charging issue that so far is 100% reliable. I will describe it below in case anyone else suffers from the 19-flash charging issue and need to charge their car in a pinch without having to take the car to a repair shop. Note that although this is a solution to the problem, it is NOT a fix of the root cause since we still don't know the root cause without access to the Tesla error codes. Since I only need to charge my car about once every other week, this solution is acceptable for me, as it takes me less than 30 seconds total to pop the hood and turn the knob to enable charging every time the issue surfaces again.

Here is how to get the car to charge again if you experience the charging issue discussed in this thread:

1. Install a 12V battery disconnect on the negative post. I picked this up for $7 today and it took about 15 minutes to install:[img]...[/img] ...

2. Turn the green knob counter-clockwise to disconnect the 12V battery, wait 10 seconds or so, and turn it the other way to connect the battery again.

After this, you will be able to charge your car again. I don't know why this works, but it works. YMMV -- even though it has worked for me, it may not work in your case, so verify that the battery disconnect/reconnect trick works before investing in the battery disconnect component in step 1 (though IMHO this is still a nice thing to install to quickly do the "Tony test" to reset the range meter). Here are some observations:

- If you follow the two steps above, but instead of charging immediately, you turn on the engine and shift the gear to Drive, the charging issue rears its ugly head again. It seems shifting into "D" causes the software to enter a state that introduces this charging issue. Inversely, disconnecting the 12V battery resets the computer to a state where you are able to charge again.

- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery. However, so far this error has been going away after driving a few minutes.

- We didn't have the necessary adapter, so I wasn't able to plug into my friend's 14-50 outlet. We tried the only thing we could, which was to plug the stock Toyota 120V EVSE into his house. This resulted in the same charging issue (19 flashes). This suggests that the issue is in software/firmware and not faulty wiring in my home. I don't think the issue is with the cables either because what are the chances that both the 120V Toyota cable and the 240V Duosida cable malfunctions at the same time, and the Toyota EVSE has been in storage ever since I bought the Duosida a year ago. After the 120V failed to charge is when my friend had the idea to disconnect the 12V; when we reconnected the 12V we were able to charge using the 120V outlet, so we know that EVSE is fine. When we got back to my house and tried disconnecting/reconnecting the 12V battery, we were able to charge again using the 240V Duosida EVSE, so I don't think there's anything wrong with that either.

In any case, even though I still don't know the exact cause of this charging "bug", I'm satisfied with the current solution.
Thanks fot Information.
Explanations ("a posteriori" and after your feedback) of such a bypass mechanism (fixing the consequences) will come later.
In the meantime, please check the results of several charging (in yours house) only with the use of stock (native) Toyota charging.


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 Post subject: Re: Cannot charge
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:46 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Ukraine
asavage wrote:
10basetom wrote:
alflash wrote:
It is a pity that during this check we will not be able to observe the parameters of Tesla systems :(
- In my case, the "Check EV System - Have Your Vehicle Checked by a Dealership Immediately" error stays in memory even after turning off the engine, disconnecting the 12V battery, and reconnecting the battery.
The Toyota ECU remembers the MIL, but alflash says the Tesla ECU doesn't. That's an unusual bit of engineering, if true.
I have repeatedly observed a situation when, in the absence of codes (at the moment) in the Tesla system , malfunction code (P312F) remains in the Toyota system. As you know, this code is only a sign of a malfunction in Tesla systems, and it can be erased (and deleted a Check EV System message) by for example, disconnecting the 12 V battery. Those, it this code can also exist in the absence * at the present time of codes in Tesla.

* Most Tesla codes are erased by themselves after fixing the malfunction.

Notes.
Some Tesla codes can only be detected when the corresponding systems are activated / enabled (for example, Inverter, Charger). Unfortunately, for many of the malfunctions of Tesla systems, there are no fault codes :(
Only contactors malfunction code can be (constantly) stored in memory and can be clear (after fix) only with scantool soft.
It should be remembered that Check EV System message can be caused by other malfunctions (codes) in Toyota systems. For example, screenshot
Image
or photo just taken on another car :)
Image


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