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 Post subject: Open Source CHAdeMO inlet for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:00 pm
Posts: 127
I have been following TonyWilliam's efforts to provide CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV which he terms "JdeMO" with interest and wondered when I might see an open source Chademo implementation for the Rav4EV. I am certain that there will always be a market for the so called JdeMo but for the DIY folks on this forum and other forums, it would really be fun to have an open source version.

As an example, the Jesla came about as Tony's implementation of an open freely available way to convert the Tesla Model S UMC to J1772. It was first done by Phil on the LEAF forum here. BBQ also reported this on this forum here. TonyWilliams posted on the Tesla forum about such a conversion here. I actually did one of these myself but realized its limitations and so went with an open source OpenEVSE build here.

Unfortunately, the only posts I see about CHAdeMo for the Rav4EV are Tony's own about the "JdeMo" The closest efforts in this regard have to do with making a portable mini-CHAdeMO charger by GaryGid and others here but this is, of course, for cars that already have CHAdeMO. Are there others working on an open source version of a CHAdeMO port for the Rav4EV?


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:01 pm 
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I think we all owe Tony a deep debt of gratitude for all the work he has done for not only the RAV4 EV crowd, but for EV owners in general. From revealing the inadequacies of Blink chargers (at the cost of melting his charging port) to the design and construction of the JdeMO. Without his efforts, the RAV4 might have eventually gone the way of the first GM EV.

Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's. There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.
2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.
3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.
4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Michael Bornstein wrote:
I think we all owe Tony a deep debt of gratitude for all the work he has done for not only the RAV4 EV crowd, but for EV owners in general. From revealing the inadequacies of Blink chargers (at the cost of melting his charging port) to the design and construction of the JdeMO. Without his efforts, the RAV4 might have eventually gone the way of the first GM EV.

Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's. There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.
2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.
3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.
4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.

Tony has been very passionate since the early LEAF days especially here in San Diego which has brought much needed attention to EVs; I have always enjoyed talking EV with Tony but an open source CHAdeMO port would not be for the average user and it should not in any way take away from Tony's efforts. The open source implementation need not use "Tony's design" but if someone were to come up with the same approach, that should be OK. Incidentally, open source does not necessarily mean cheaper alternative; it might, in fact, be more expensive but there is a value to open source projects and some of us would choose to do it for the fun of it.


Last edited by ehelmholtz on Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 606
Michael Bornstein wrote:
Although Open Source is a nice concept, I would be against an Open Source CHAdeMO for the following reasons:

1. There is a very limited market. Tony has found only 55 (are 3 of them named TW?) customers of the 2600 RAV4's.

I don't think TW is a "customer" and I don't think he was included in the count.
Given that only 4.5% of the rav4ev's are "known" in the vin database, that means Tony's market has way more potential, if he only knew how to reach them.
Quote:
There may even be less in the Mercedes crowd as they are probably not of the "Maker" group.

The Mercedes is just on the market. People are still within the first months of enjoying the car without seeing drawbacks like taking it on a longer trip with charge time delay's.
I think in a year from now, the mercedes group will be way more involved in the QC option.
That is just timing.

Quote:
2. Safety. Tony is constantly warning us to beware of the High Voltages involved, and that is why he doesn't recommend user installation.

If you don't know what you are doing, stay away from it. That is a general rule in life ;-)
Quote:
3. Liability. If Tony's design becomes public, and someone fries himself or sets fire to the car/garage/house, I can see the lawyers lining up.
I am not sure who would be prosecuted: Tony or the person making things public.
Unfortunately part of the culture here in the usa.
Quote:
4. Compensation. A LOT of time and effort has been expended by Tony and his group, and they deserve to get proper compensation for their efforts, not for someone to come out with a cheaper alternative. Remember, this is not his day job, he is doing this for the benefit of the rest of us.

Perhaps a more appropriate Open Source project would be an adapter to allow cars with the SAE Frankenplug to charge at CHAdeMO stations.


Start it ;-)

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OpenEvse wifi controlled L1/L2 charging
2 x GEM EV, 2019 Chevy Bolt
past ev's: 3 yr leaf 30k, 3yr rav4ev 34k, 3yr rav4ev 25k


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
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Location: San Diego
The above very nicely summarizes my thoughts quite nicely.

Things we need in the EV world:

1) Frankenplug charger adaptors, so that the 150,000 CHAdeMO port equipped cars (and several dozen RAV4 and Mercedes B-Class ED''s) can use the Frankenplug when the adjoining CHAdeMO charger is occupied.

The chances of the Frankenplug charger being in use with a few thousand cars driving around is slim, so it will likely always be available.

NOTE: except for some future BMW dealers, virtually EVERY Frankenplug has a CHAdeMO sitting right next to it.

2) CHAdeMO stations everywhere. My latest concept is a regional "JdeMO" network throughout the western US similar to Superchargers:

a. 100-150kW, dual head, just like Superchargers
b. Prepaid for by users
c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users
d. fully compatible with CHAdeMO capable cars
e. "Dumb" stations... it starts and stops on site... no communications that interfere or fail to charge your car
f. between major metro area, LA to SF, SF to Sacto, Sacto to Reno, San Diego to LA, LA to Las Vegas, Seattle to Portland, Sacto to Oregon

Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"

_________________
Tony Williams
QC Charge
1780-104 La Costa Meadows Drive
San Marcos, California 92078 USA
tony@QCcharge.com
www.QCcharge.com
Twitter: QCPower
1-844-EV-PARTS
1-844-387-2787
1-760-798-0342 Office
Hours M-F, 9-5 Pacific Time


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1788
Location: Los Altos, CA
One of my thoughts that has not been clearly expressed is that Open Source works well when you start from a published standard.
For example, both a J1772 EVSE and a CHAdeMO charger follows a standard. How to charge a car's traction battery is not - it's proprietary to that battery system.

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2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
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Location: Los Altos, CA
TonyWilliams wrote:
c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users
What kind of plug do you propose?

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2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 4068
Location: San Diego
miimura wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
c. custom plug that is not compatible with non-paid users
What kind of plug do you propose?


In the Soviet era, the Russians designed their 7.62mm ball round to work only in their AK-47, but not in NATO 7.62mm weapons.

But, the AK-47 could take NATO rounds.

So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO without prepaid modification to their car.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in. A simple sign offers folks a website to sign up and get their car modified; "free forever" when prepaid.

Because it's private, you will likely always find it available. With one charger and two cables, even if it's busy, you plug in and it will automatically start charging when the other car starts ramping down its charge.

_________________
Tony Williams
QC Charge
1780-104 La Costa Meadows Drive
San Marcos, California 92078 USA
tony@QCcharge.com
www.QCcharge.com
Twitter: QCPower
1-844-EV-PARTS
1-844-387-2787
1-760-798-0342 Office
Hours M-F, 9-5 Pacific Time


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:00 pm
Posts: 127
TonyWilliams wrote:
...Let's do one of the above as "Open Source"
These are good thoughts but don't you think that a Frankenplug to CHAdeMO adapter would be more of a challenge since the charging protocols are different? For example for L2 charging, making a Tesla plug to J1772 adapter or cutting off the Tesla plug and putting on a J1772 is more doable since its the same protocol.

In fact, wouldn't it be easier to put a CHAdeMO port on a frankenplug car like the BMW i3, than actually making an adapter from SAE CCS to CHAdeMO? I imagine one way to implement CHAdeMO is to intercept the car's charging handshake signals and tell it that it's OK to charge and then send in direct current into the battery using a CHAdeMO port.


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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO for Rav4 EV?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:40 pm 
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TonyWilliams wrote:
...So, the JdeMO port would accept CHAdeMO *and* JdeMO, but CHAdeMO equipped cars could not use JdeMO.

We would want the tens of thousands of LEAF and future Soul EV owners to also be able to pay the upfront fee, so a modification to their car will allow this. No freeloaders, and no customer support for ad hoc. If you prepaid, you helped build the network. You're in.

Now, this is a great idea; we need a charging network similar to Tesla's. The other way to implement this is to charge regular CHAdeMO equipped cars a fee to charge while those with the JdeMO can charge for free based on Vin # like Tesla does it or with a card that you swipe.


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