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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:18 pm 
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miimura wrote:
Kohler Controller wrote:
For what it's worth,

Creating a lower power, less expensive charging station with all of the other attributes might be better.

Since our batteries are not as large as Tesla's, there is little incentive to build a charger larger than 60kW, as the charging C-rate needs to be kept within spec of the cells. So 3 of the ISOCharge-20000's would only be needed (~$15k, plus control board, outer weather box, AC fuse/junction box, output cable & plug). Also, perhaps some of Tony's testing can determine the difference in charge times between 40 and 60kWs, as Fuji showed how their 25kW charger takes only ~11 minutes longer to charge a Leaf battery than a 50kW charger.
http://www.americas.fujielectric.com/si ... %20%2050kW)%207-3-12.pdf
If that's the case, then one could make a 40kW charger as the best balance between cost and utility. Even going to a 20kW option (a mini-fast charger) could be plugged in almost anywhere (240V single phase) opening up a much wider deployment base.


For the RAV4 EV, I don't think that 20kW-25kW is worth doing for this application. It's just not fast enough for inter-city travel. I suspect that Tony has seen the CANbus messages from the Tesla BMS in the RAV and knows that it can take significantly more than the 40kW to 50kW that today's CHAdeMO chargers put out. I think that 80kW is a good number because it would likely allow the RAV to charge to 80% in 30 minutes, a common goal of DCFC.

Your 20kW "mini-fast charger" is a good idea, but it's really a solution to a different problem. ABB is already working on something like this, initially for China, and the Bosch-BMW unit is similar, but configured for Combo1 or Combo2.


80kW would be too fast of a charge rate for our pack (1.6C). Even Tesla limits it to 1.4C. Using a 50kW charger would be 1C and would recharge to 80% from 30% in ~30 minutes.

Image

I'm glad to hear about ABB's option. I just think that a 20kW, install-anywhere, low cost charger is still valuable when you consider it's 3-4X faster than public EVSEs, offering almost 1mile/minute charge rate. The price difference between it an a 50kW version when considering infrastructure and installation costs are more than the difference in output power alone (maybe 1/4th the price?). Don't get me wrong, I still want both, but use the 20kW installs at restaurants/bars and 50kW chargers on the edges of town.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:54 pm 
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Kohler Controller wrote:
80kW would be too fast of a charge rate for our pack (1.6C). Even Tesla limits it to 1.4C.
That's because most are driving 85's but what about the 60's on the new SC units?

Where are the YouTube vids of the S60 owners going on a new 135kw SC unit.. I bet they are pushing harder.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
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Location: San Diego
Kohler Controller wrote:
80kW would be too fast of a charge rate for our pack (1.6C). Even Tesla limits it to 1.4C. Using a 50kW charger would be 1C and would recharge to 80% from 30% in ~30 minutes.... I just think that a 20kW, install-anywhere, low cost charger is still valuable when you consider it's 3-4X faster than public EVSEs, offering almost 1mile/minute charge rate. The price difference between it an a 50kW version when considering infrastructure and installation costs are more than the difference in output power alone (maybe 1/4th the price?). Don't get me wrong, I still want both, but use the 20kW installs at restaurants/bars and 50kW chargers on the edges of town.


The charger concept that I propose is modular. It can be 10kW, or 150kW. So, that part of the equation is a non-issue.

The 60kWh Tesla has been seen at 105kW, or 1.75C

The 85kWh Tesla has been at 135kW, or 1.588C

The Nissan LEAF (no cooling system) is 2C.

The RAV4 EV won't always have the exact same 2900ma cells, so we have to build for tomorrow. I am confident that we can take 80kW today (250 amps lower pack voltages), which makes is a "125kW" charger on the currently unobtanium 500 volt battery that CHAdeMO is rated for. That's for a single car.

Which is why I keep calling the proposal 100-150kW.

After driving this little 1000+ mile weekend in the RAV4, I can tell you that 25kW CHAdeMO sucks. Great for a LEAF, not so great for a "real" car. The faster we can jam the power in the battery at the lower SOC%, the better.

For two cars that show up, there needs to be enough reserve for a single car to be at full power while the second car gets something.

Again, I foresee REGIONAL travel as the niche, and 25kW isn't even close.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:04 am 
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Location: San Diego
miimura wrote:
For the RAV4 EV, I don't think that 20kW-25kW is worth doing for this application. It's just not fast enough for inter-city travel. I suspect that Tony has seen the CANbus messages from the Tesla BMS in the RAV and knows that it can take significantly more than the 40kW to 50kW that today's CHAdeMO chargers put out.



For the record, the maximum amperage reported by the CAN for "Sport" mode is 530 amps, and 480 amps in normal mode. There obviously is no maximum for DC charging, since it wasn't equipped that way.


Quote:
To hit 80kW we would need 200A rating on the handle and inlet. Again, Tony has had contact with Yazaki, so he would know what spec is available today.



200 amps * 300 volts for a mostly depleted battery is only 60kW (1.26C). We need a specification for 1.5C at 300 volts, which equals 240 amps. In common industry rating standards, that is 240 amps * 500 volts = 120kW. I recommend that be the minimum, with 300 amps (150kW) to be the maximum.

So, the maximum charge on our Rav4 EV with the current battery of 48kWh-ish is:

1.5C max charge rate, 72kW

20% SOC (300 volts * 240 amps = 72kW)
50% SOC (340 volts * 211 amps = 72kW)
96% SOC (382 volts * 20 amps = 7.6kW)

*******************************

1.6667C max charge rate, 80kW

20% SOC (300 volts * 267 amps = 80kW)
50% SOC (340 volts * 235 amps = 80kW)
96% SOC (382 volts * 20 amps = 7.6kW)

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:15 am 
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Location: San Diego
jimbo69ny wrote:
Lets modify our cars so we can accept the CHAdeMo fast charge, a dual j1772 and better yet, a 60 - 85kwh battery. Lets let the billion dollar companies build the electric highways. We will get a lot further pooling our money together on a Rav4 EV project that helps us need less charging stations than building an EV highway. Plus people like me in NY and others in PA and MN will also invest in the improvements.


Clearly, I think we should have all the things you mention. This thread is devoted to an additional thing, not an in lieu of thing.

I wouldn't expect you to finance what undoubtedly will be a western solution, much like all the original Tesla Roadster stations were.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:47 am 
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Location: San Diego
miimura wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
2) hack the existing Tesla 10kW charger and use that as the design for Open Source DC charging.

How do you propose to source the Tesla chargers? For development purposes, you could get a few from wrecking yards, but that will not be practical for building out the network. If you're proposing to buy them from Tesla, why not ask to buy the whole cabinet already finished? Changing the vehicle communications and using your own vehicle connector is much easier than integrating the whole stack of chargers yourself.



Yes, clearly, writing a big check for a current 135kW Supercharger and putting a CHAdeMO plug on it is the easy answer. I'm going to suggest that it's going to be cost prohibitive. One interesting strategy with this is that one plug can remain Supercharger and the other CHAdeMO.

Since the 60kWh Tesla cars may not have Supercharger access, but they do have all the hardware, that means a market exists for some very limited Tesla drivers to use our non-networked units that couldn't otherwise Supercharge.


miimura wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
5) we need a really good plug design, which is as big a project as the charger

Personally, I think maintaining physical and protocol compatibility with CHAdeMO is a good idea. Adding a module inside the car that will authenticate with the charger without requiring net connectivity would be a good solution. This authentication could just be a newly defined extension of the CHAdeMO protocol.



My current thinking is:

1) one way compatible plug
2) using pin 3 of the CHAdeMO plug as a authentication connection
3) using the CAN reported VIN of each car, just like Tesla
4) any 2 or all 3 of the above

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:50 am 
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Location: Los Altos, CA
TonyWilliams wrote:
200 amps * 300 volts for a mostly depleted battery is only 60kW (1.26C). We need a specification for 1.5C at 300 volts, which equals 240 amps. In common industry rating standards, that is 240 amps * 500 volts = 120kW. I recommend that be the minimum, with 300 amps (150kW) to be the maximum.
So, is there a commercial off the shelf vehicle inlet and matching cable and handle available for purchase rated at 300A?

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:53 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
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Location: San Diego
miimura wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
200 amps * 300 volts for a mostly depleted battery is only 60kW (1.26C). We need a specification for 1.5C at 300 volts, which equals 240 amps. In common industry rating standards, that is 240 amps * 500 volts = 120kW. I recommend that be the minimum, with 300 amps (150kW) to be the maximum.
So, is there a commercial off the shelf vehicle inlet and matching cable and handle available for purchase rated at 300A?



Of course not. We have to build it.

The CHAdeMO standard is 125 amps.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
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Location: Los Altos, CA
TonyWilliams wrote:
miimura wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
200 amps * 300 volts for a mostly depleted battery is only 60kW (1.26C). We need a specification for 1.5C at 300 volts, which equals 240 amps. In common industry rating standards, that is 240 amps * 500 volts = 120kW. I recommend that be the minimum, with 300 amps (150kW) to be the maximum.
So, is there a commercial off the shelf vehicle inlet and matching cable and handle available for purchase rated at 300A?

Of course not. We have to build it.

The CHAdeMO standard is 125 amps.
Well, if you take a page from Tesla's play book, you make the high current pins longer for more contact area to carry the higher current. That's what they did for the Type-2 compatible inlet. The trick is to make the vehicle inlet compatible with the rest of the existing infrastructure. I thought there was some specification for higher power CHAdeMO but all the existing product is remaining at the lowest common denominator of 125A.

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 Post subject: Re: Open Source CHAdeMO charger 100-150kW
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:36 am 
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miimura wrote:
Well, if you take a page from Tesla's play book, you make the high current pins longer for more contact area to carry the higher current. That's what they did for the Type-2 compatible inlet. The trick is to make the vehicle inlet compatible with the rest of the existing infrastructure. I thought there was some specification for higher power CHAdeMO but all the existing product is remaining at the lowest common denominator of 125A.


Of course. That is why, again, that I suggest a virtual duplication of the Tesla Supercharger, that just happens to have a CHAdeMO inlet of the "JdeMO" specification.

Yes, longer pins that allow users free access, and still be reverse compatible with CHAdeMO.

Yes, that would allow 300 amps.

We need to build the 40 amp / 208 to 277 volt chargers.

We need to build the custom plug.

We need to write the software.

Everything else is just hardware to collect, like a case to put it in, or radiators and fans to cool it, or cables to transfer the power.

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tony@QCcharge.com
www.QCcharge.com
Twitter: QCPower
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