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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:30 pm
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Location: San Diego Co
I'm excited to find out more about progress here. I hope to have a V2H solution in place in the next 90 days. Tony, have you had any response from SolarEdge engineering? I have another inquiry with them from 12/19 and I have not heard back yet. What is the best way to keep in touch on this, email via QCP?

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OpenEVSE 40 amp

"Aquaponics...solar-powered nanotechnology that produces fresh vegetables and meat, while purifying water..." - Rick Op, Houston Texas.


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 6:09 pm
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dstjohn99 wrote:
What is the best way to keep in touch on this, email via QCP?


Maybe by posting here. I, too, have a jDemo and are interested in this topic and result. There may be others interested ...


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1791
Location: Los Altos, CA
EVTV Motor Verks has a variety of inverters available for sale that can directly take the DC pack voltage from an EV and output pure sine 240V split phase power. They have 50kW, 20kW, 10kW and 5kW units. For emergency power when the grid is down these are ready to go with the exception of the CHAdeMO interface. All you would need is a traditional generator transfer switch to ensure that the grid is cut off from the inverter.

They also have all the parts necessary to turn a full intact Tesla battery pack into an off grid power system. Their inverters have a kind of backwards UPS arrangement. Most of the time the load is powered by the inverter and battery pack. However, if the battery pack drops too low, it will turn off the inverter and connect the grid power to the loads. Maybe I shouldn't say UPS, because I think the load is interrupted during switching. Most of the time you shouldn't need to use that feature because you can put a battery charger on the grid to make sure that the battery never drops too low.

http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=22

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2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 4075
Location: San Diego
I’ve been on holiday for the past couple weeks.

I’m planning on meeting with the Solar Edge folks in Jan/Feb in Fremont, California.

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Tony Williams
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1780-104 La Costa Meadows Drive
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tony@QCcharge.com
www.QCcharge.com
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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:30 pm
Posts: 275
Location: San Diego Co
miimura wrote:
EVTV Motor Verks has a variety of inverters available for sale that can directly take the DC pack voltage from an EV and output pure sine 240V split phase power. They have 50kW, 20kW, 10kW and 5kW units. For emergency power when the grid is down these are ready to go with the exception of the CHAdeMO interface. All you would need is a traditional generator transfer switch to ensure that the grid is cut off from the inverter.

They also have all the parts necessary to turn a full intact Tesla battery pack into an off grid power system. Their inverters have a kind of backwards UPS arrangement. Most of the time the load is powered by the inverter and battery pack. However, if the battery pack drops too low, it will turn off the inverter and connect the grid power to the loads. Maybe I shouldn't say UPS, because I think the load is interrupted during switching. Most of the time you shouldn't need to use that feature because you can put a battery charger on the grid to make sure that the battery never drops too low.

http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=22


An interesting alternative that seems cost effective at first, until you factor in the additional $2,400 module needed to interface with a Tesla battery (or EV?). Also not grid tied, so not really a good option "for the masses."

The Solaredge StorEdge is grid tied, needs few additional modules (a load balancing transformer if you want backup power supply - about $270)and will manage several output modes like peak shifting, battery charge times, partition battery between peak shaving and available backup power, etc. It's also only $2700.

That's why it sparks my interest due to robust capabilities and reasonable cost. Since it's already capable of interfacing with the grid and a Powerwall or similar RESU10H battery, I'm hoping the upsizing to the Rav4 pack is a reasonable task like a Chademo plug and simple interface control. We shall see...

_________________
8/12/14 RAV4 EV #3008, Blizzard Pearl
9kW Solar Electric System
SDGE TOU metering
OpenEVSE 40 amp

"Aquaponics...solar-powered nanotechnology that produces fresh vegetables and meat, while purifying water..." - Rick Op, Houston Texas.


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1791
Location: Los Altos, CA
dstjohn99 wrote:
miimura wrote:
EVTV Motor Verks has a variety of inverters available for sale that can directly take the DC pack voltage from an EV and output pure sine 240V split phase power. They have 50kW, 20kW, 10kW and 5kW units. For emergency power when the grid is down these are ready to go with the exception of the CHAdeMO interface. All you would need is a traditional generator transfer switch to ensure that the grid is cut off from the inverter.

They also have all the parts necessary to turn a full intact Tesla battery pack into an off grid power system. Their inverters have a kind of backwards UPS arrangement. Most of the time the load is powered by the inverter and battery pack. However, if the battery pack drops too low, it will turn off the inverter and connect the grid power to the loads. Maybe I shouldn't say UPS, because I think the load is interrupted during switching. Most of the time you shouldn't need to use that feature because you can put a battery charger on the grid to make sure that the battery never drops too low.

http://store.evtv.me/products.php?cat=22


An interesting alternative that seems cost effective at first, until you factor in the additional $2,400 module needed to interface with a Tesla battery (or EV?). Also not grid tied, so not really a good option "for the masses."

The Solaredge StorEdge is grid tied, needs few additional modules (a load balancing transformer if you want backup power supply - about $270)and will manage several output modes like peak shifting, battery charge times, partition battery between peak shaving and available backup power, etc. It's also only $2700.

That's why it sparks my interest due to robust capabilities and reasonable cost. Since it's already capable of interfacing with the grid and a Powerwall or similar RESU10H battery, I'm hoping the upsizing to the Rav4 pack is a reasonable task like a Chademo plug and simple interface control. We shall see...

The inverter that EVTV is selling would be a good backup power source. Actually, if you watch Jack Ricard's videos, he is big on solar first, so he designs the system so that the inverter would power the whole house and the solar charges the batteries directly through a solar charge controller. Only when the battery gets low, do you use a battery charger connected to the grid. That way, the inverter is never connected directly to the grid and it only does a fail-over to the grid if the battery gets too low.

A CHAdeMO controller is a whole lot simpler than what EVTV is selling for the intact Tesla pack interface. EVTV had to reverse engineer the whole BMS, which was clearly a big job. Tony's team likely already knows the CHAdeMO protocol well enough to make the V2H CHAdeMO interface with little new information. Since it's only acting as a battery interface and not a charger, it does not even have to have any current control. It just has to make the car think it is connecting to a valid CHAdeMO system and that the connections are safe.

_________________
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1791
Location: Los Altos, CA
In case I didn't say it, I feel that CHAdeMO connected V2H is only good for backup power. If you want a battery inverter to interact with the grid, you should dedicate a stationary battery to that task. Of course, it could be a salvaged EV battery, but then you don't need the CHAdeMO interface because you're stationary and don't need to disconnect it.

_________________
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:30 pm
Posts: 275
Location: San Diego Co
miimura wrote:
In case I didn't say it, I feel that CHAdeMO connected V2H is only good for backup power. If you want a battery inverter to interact with the grid, you should dedicate a stationary battery to that task. Of course, it could be a salvaged EV battery, but then you don't need the CHAdeMO interface because you're stationary and don't need to disconnect it.


Interesting, why do you say that? I think it would be great to get home from work, use my remaining capacity for peak shaving the 4-9pm peak period, then charge from 12am-5am at off peak rates. Repeat daily. I would like to avoid spending another $6k for a dedicated battery that has less capacity than my car. It would cost $24k to get off the shelf batteries with capacity equivalent to my car - cheaper to buy another car (a battery I can drive, if needed!). If I get used Leaf batteries or similar, then there is the infrastructure complexity and expense of making them suitable for long term PV backup.

If I could just connect a Chademo plug and my L2 EVSE on timer, then forget it until next time I need to drive that would be ideal. I'm sure the inverter is not anticipating a vanishing battery pack, but that's where a little engineering can be used to create an interface to resolve any related issues, I hope.

_________________
8/12/14 RAV4 EV #3008, Blizzard Pearl
9kW Solar Electric System
SDGE TOU metering
OpenEVSE 40 amp

"Aquaponics...solar-powered nanotechnology that produces fresh vegetables and meat, while purifying water..." - Rick Op, Houston Texas.


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:13 pm
Posts: 1791
Location: Los Altos, CA
dstjohn99 wrote:
miimura wrote:
In case I didn't say it, I feel that CHAdeMO connected V2H is only good for backup power. If you want a battery inverter to interact with the grid, you should dedicate a stationary battery to that task. Of course, it could be a salvaged EV battery, but then you don't need the CHAdeMO interface because you're stationary and don't need to disconnect it.

Interesting, why do you say that? I think it would be great to get home from work, use my remaining capacity for peak shaving the 4-9pm peak period, then charge from 12am-5am at off peak rates. Repeat daily. I would like to avoid spending another $6k for a dedicated battery that has less capacity than my car. It would cost $24k to get off the shelf batteries with capacity equivalent to my car - cheaper to buy another car (a battery I can drive, if needed!). If I get used Leaf batteries or similar, then there is the infrastructure complexity and expense of making them suitable for long term PV backup.

If I could just connect a Chademo plug and my L2 EVSE on timer, then forget it until next time I need to drive that would be ideal. I'm sure the inverter is not anticipating a vanishing battery pack, but that's where a little engineering can be used to create an interface to resolve any related issues, I hope.

Superficially, your scheme sounds workable. How effective it would be would depend on the actual usage pattern in your home. If the wife and kids get home before you, then you can't offset that usage because your car is not there.

Since I have solar, I think about these things assuming others do too even though I suppose it's not a requirement to have solar to use a battery to offset your peak usage. However, any grid interactive inverter needs Permission To Operate from the utility. People have been finding that the utilities have not been easy to work with on this and they have occasionally run into strange an nonsensical issues like the utility demanding grid impact studies and infrastructure upgrade costs based on combinations of system outputs that would never happen. This happened to a PG&E customer that had Tesla PowerWalls installed even though the tariffs and PTO process have already been updated to streamline the processing. The easiest residential PTO approval follows a path that ensures that the battery never actually discharges into the grid but instead purely offsets household loads.

This is getting more involved the more I think about it, so to save time I will just drop some other issues below without any further explanation right now.
- NEM 2.0 Non-Bypassable Charges
- Solar self consumption strategies that avoid utility interconnection
- How many kWh do you actually need to offset on a daily basis?
- Additional car battery pack degradation due to extra daily cycles beyond vehicle mileage

_________________
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Powering the grid from your car
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:42 pm
Posts: 308
Location: San Diego, CA, USA
dstjohn99 wrote:
miimura wrote:
In case I didn't say it, I feel that CHAdeMO connected V2H is only good for backup power. If you want a battery inverter to interact with the grid, you should dedicate a stationary battery to that task. Of course, it could be a salvaged EV battery, but then you don't need the CHAdeMO interface because you're stationary and don't need to disconnect it.


Interesting, why do you say that? I think it would be great to get home from work, use my remaining capacity for peak shaving the 4-9pm peak period, then charge from 12am-5am at off peak rates. Repeat daily. I would like to avoid spending another $6k for a dedicated battery that has less capacity than my car. It would cost $24k to get off the shelf batteries with capacity equivalent to my car - cheaper to buy another car (a battery I can drive, if needed!). If I get used Leaf batteries or similar, then there is the infrastructure complexity and expense of making them suitable for long term PV backup.

If I could just connect a Chademo plug and my L2 EVSE on timer, then forget it until next time I need to drive that would be ideal. I'm sure the inverter is not anticipating a vanishing battery pack, but that's where a little engineering can be used to create an interface to resolve any related issues, I hope.


I sure wouldn't want to add the extra daily cycling to my car's battery. If a dedicated battery degrades, I just keep using it until I decide it's cost effective to replace it. If my car's battery degrades too much, my car becomes useless. Also, you've created a false equivalency on your pricing scenario. If you're just using the tail end of your car's capacity after your driving day to cover a small peak period, you probably only need a small (10kWh ?) battery to give you that same utility. Besides, how complex is the infrastructure if you buy the solution off the shelf?


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