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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:17 am 
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Here is the discussion about the Toyota hydrogen car

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Location: San Diego
Koei Saga, senior managing officer in charge of Toyota’s drivetrain research and development, spoke with Automotive News at length. The general topic was future powertrains from Toyota.

As Automotive News explains:

"Saga is not a big proponent of electric vehicles. He said Toyota — or any large-scale automaker for that matter — would not have developed the RAV4 EV if it weren’t forced to comply with California Air Resources Board regulations.”

http://insideevs.com/toyotas-drivetrain ... ent-182741

Those weren’t Saga’s words, but these are. Saga stated that Tesla’s business plan seems doubtful “when sales are based on targeting rich users for whom this is their third or fourth car.”

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:14 am 
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Location: Redwood City, CA
I just don't get the new Toyota FCV (or FCVs in general). Toyota hates BEVs, so they will do a FCV next. Fuel cell technology is not nearly as developed (or inexpensive) as BEV technology, and there is zero FCV infrastructure in place. OK, if you can stomach that, it seems that the real kicker is that FCVs need big batteries because the fuel cell produces power at a constant but not high rate. Therefore you need to store a good bit of the electrical energy (produced by the fuel cell) in a big battery to get up long mountain passes etc. How big? The battery for the Toyota FCV is 21 kWh - half the capacity of the RAV4 EV and nearly as big as the capacity of the Leaf!

So not only does the Toyota FCV need advances in new technology for which there is no infrastructure, it also needs a fairly giant battery (much closer to a RAV4 EV than a PIP on a log scale). Wouldn't it be much easier to just ditch the fuel cell and put in a charger plus a somewhat bigger battery?

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:30 pm 
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I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.


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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:15 pm 
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Location: Hermosa Beach CA
oldman wrote:
I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.


Yes, I think you are right about that. In addition, I think Hydrogen takes a lot of energy to make and I think it is made from Hydrocarbons. Follow the money.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:55 pm 
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oldman wrote:
I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.


Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 5:36 pm 
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Location: Lake Stevens Washington
bruin nut wrote:
oldman wrote:
I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.


Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.


There was a short time period when Toyota offered $10,000 off MSRP, and a small dealer discount, and zero interest loan. Then zero taxes for myself in Wa. And of course the fed tax credit.
Deal of the century. I was blown away when I heard about it. Jumped in fast. The offer only lasted a month or 2. If I see that deal again, I may have to buy a second.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:16 am 
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doug401 wrote:
bruin nut wrote:
oldman wrote:
I am guessing fuel cell vehicles make sense for keeping service stations alive and vibrant to service gas and hydrogen powered cars, for requiring more maintenance at Toyota dealers, and for getting people to drive longer distances. After all the bottom line for corporations is profit, not necessarily benefitting the consumer or the environment. I'll stick with my EV, charge it up at home or at free charging stations, and let the others keep service stations alive, and keep Toyota service centers profitable. I guess Toyota really wants to get rid of the EVs now. Bought my new RAV4 EV for $38,000. Now to get my tax credits.


Where did you get such a good deal? Thats 12k below MSRP.


There was a short time period when Toyota offered $10,000 off MSRP, and a small dealer discount, and zero interest loan. Then zero taxes for myself in Wa. And of course the fed tax credit.
Deal of the century. I was blown away when I heard about it. Jumped in fast. The offer only lasted a month or 2. If I see that deal again, I may have to buy a second.



I received the same exact deal, then got my $2500 from the State, and now will receive $7500 Federal Tax Credit this year....No brainer!!

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:38 am 
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I bought a used 2012 with 4k miles for $29k. Colorado has a $6k rebate on top of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why did Toyota build Rav4 EV? What happens after 2014 ?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:46 am 
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I am so disappointed that Toyota has not embraced BEVs they way they set the standard for hybrids. I love my RAV4EV! It is the vehicle that has brought pure joy back to driving. And all without any guilt about polluting the atmosphere. The additional benefit of reducing our dependance on oil (foreign or domestic) is a great one, too.

I think the plan to produce fuel cell vehicles is truly bizarre. Yes, I know Toyota will get great CARB credits for producing the FCVs, but the lack of H2 infrastructure is the heavy (if not impossible) lift. I have had the pleasure of driving a CNG Honda Civic since 2005 at work. Because we have our own fueling stations, refueling is not normally a problem with the 150 mile range. However, on occasions where I must fuel at a facility other than our own--what a NIGHTMARE. Sure, you can find CNG stations with a laptop, but then you get there and they are broken or closed or locked or nonexistent or selling CNG at much higher $$$ than advertised. The CNG stations are few and far between. Very range anxiety producing moments! Applying my personal experience driving a CNG to what a FCV owner will be forced to deal with is, to me, going to be a total nightmare. I hope I am wrong, but Toyota--I just don't get it.

People are overly obsessed with BEV range anxiety. Range anxiety is real, but with a 100+ mile range, and electricity in every home/garage/business, reasonable planning is not too hard. I will admit being a multi car family has a huge advantage when I really do need the range of a traditionally fueled vehicle. But it is very rare that my RAV4EV will not fulfill my range needs.

Having solar photovoltaic and an EV is the greatest! Before getting my EV, I was overproducing 3MWHs of electricity per year. My electric utility was paying me approximately $100 for my overproduction per year. That 3MWHs will propel my RAV4EV for 8K-10K miles! Try that with an FCV.

I see electric cars becoming serious mainstream vehicles in the near future. I am glad we have a jump on things. I will keep on smiling while enjoying the exhilaration of driving my RAV4EV in SPORT MODE daily.

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