Is the battery bad on a car I wish to purchase

Toyota Rav4 EV Forum

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pkulak

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Sep 23, 2015
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http://i.imgur.com/C4X2dah.jpg

Looking into a Rav4 EV that's near me for sale by a dealer. Looks like the GOM says 72 miles for a nearly-full battery. Is the battery hosed, or is this normal? I was kinda hoping that I could make a 115-mile trip, otherwise it's probably not worth it to me. Also, is there any way to figure out the battery capacity remaining? Any Leaf Spy for Rav4 EVs? Thanks for any help!
 
pkulak said:
http://i.imgur.com/C4X2dah.jpg

Looking into a Rav4 EV that's near me for sale by a dealer. Looks like the GOM says 72 miles for a nearly-full battery. Is the battery hosed, or is this normal? I was kinda hoping that I could make a 115-mile trip, otherwise it's probably not worth it to me. Also, is there any way to figure out the battery capacity remaining? Any Leaf Spy for Rav4 EVs? Thanks for any help!

The GOM (guess-o-meter) predicts the range based on the last driven miles.
If this car is at a dealer ship, everyone will like to try the torque and doesn't drive economically
It is already down 2 blocks from a normal charge (around 80% of battery capacity)
I think the battery is not in a bad shape to be honest.

The real range is depending how you will drive it.
As soon as you go over 60 mph, every mile faster, it will suck the energy faster and faster from the battery.
Energy need is not linear to speed, more like ^2 of it .
You also don't want to tap into the last 20% of your battery too often.
When I charge my rav4 to the normal 80%, I often see a range of 110-120 miles on the display.
If you can control acceleration, and limit top speed to 65, you will be able to drive 90-100 miles without getting the low battery warning (last 20%).
But it really takes an effort!
And that is without things like heating/cooling (cooling is not as much a energy hog as the heater). Also when it is raining, you need more energy to push away the rain drops. All draining your battery faster.
So if you have a lead foot, want to drive like a normal ICE car and you need to drive 115 miles trip on a frequent basis, I would go for a tesla model S.
The only car full electric car that can do that and still have charge left.

just my $0.02
 
Thanks! I'm looking for a replacement for my Leaf that just came off lease. If it can _barely_ make it the 115 miles, that's okay. I only do it a few times a year. It would be a "nice to have", really. And that's just until I get a JDEMO into it, which would really turn it into one hell of a car. I just want to make sure I'm not getting something with a roasted battery. :)

EDIT: I also just realized that by default the battery doesn't actually charge all the way. haha
 
pkulak said:
Thanks! I'm looking for a replacement for my Leaf that just came off lease. If it can _barely_ make it the 115 miles, that's okay. I only do it a few times a year. It would be a "nice to have", really. And that's just until I get a JDEMO into it, which would really turn it into one hell of a car. I just want to make sure I'm not getting something with a roasted battery. :)

EDIT: I also just realized that by default the battery doesn't actually charge all the way. haha


If you do the full charge, and you drive defensively , you should get close to 140 miles if needed.
So your 115 couple of times a year is not a problem.
With the JDEMO you won't even blink (no pun intended) about that distance. 15 minute charge in the middle and you will easily make the 115 miles, even driving 80 mph ;-)

Best bang for the buck in EV imho, and that won't change for a while ;-)
 
RAV4 EV battery default "Rated Range":

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518


1) Fully charge vehicle using "Extended" with the J1772 port (not CHAdeMO)

2) Battery must be at room temperature. When you charge the RAV4 EV to 100% full on extended charge, it will be warm. If you park in an enclosed garage with outside temps in the 50F-60F, the battery will likely still be warm enough in 4-8 hours.

3) MAKE SURE THE CAR IS OFF !!!

4) Disconnect all 3 of the 12 volt battery negative cables, and leave it that way overnight. This will require removal of the M8 wing nut for JdeMO equipped vehicles, or a 12mm socket to remove the M8 hex nut. The cabin climate control will automatically go to OFF with battery disconnect.


***** Next day: ******


5) Reconnect 12 volt battery

6) Hold foot on brake and press START button with key fob nearby just once

7) Energy "fuel" gauge will show Full (16 illuminated segments) and "LO" on the GOM

8) Wait for navigation unit to complete its start up (about 20 seconds)

9) Press START with brake pedal depressed a second time. You will hear a clunk of the main battery contactors under the front passenger seat and the dash should indicate "READY". The cabin climate control must be off. If it was not off, there is some issue prior to this step.

10) The displayed range is "RATED RANGE" at 3.5 miles per kWh

11) Divide this Rated Range by 146 to get usable battery capacity compared to new.

Example: 142 rated range / 146 = 97.2% battery capacity from new


********


Additional driving test:


If you drive the RAV4 EV at my standard test speed of 100km / 62mph ground speed, it will go almost EXACTLY the rated range.

TEST DRIVING PROTOCOL - dry, hard surface level road with no wind or cabin climate control with new condition battery at 70F, no elevation changes, "out-and-back" or loop course to compensate for any wind, 62mph / 100km/h GROUND speed as measured by GPS.

So, if the car is new, it will bang out 146 miles and the rated range will be 146 under the prescribed conditions.

If the rated range is 135, it will go 135 miles.


********


What is lost and needs to be reset with a 12 volt disconnect:

http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20859#p20859

1) Cabin climate control is Off. Make appropriate settings.

2) Stored radio / SiriusXM stations will remain, however your last station listened to will likely be gone

3) Cell phone pairings are not 100%. You may have to delete your phone (and the RAV4 from your phone) and re-pair them

4) Map display mode

5) Volume of navigation voice notifications

6) Random play modes

7) Charge schedule will be retained, but it won't work without hitting the "SAVE" button on the previous screen. Check the programmed settings first, then go back to the previous page to press Save. It won't save the data any other way.

8) State selection from Destination address page
 
There's absolutely no way you can determine the health of the battery from anything in that screenshot (unless it looked like that right after a full charge, but I've never heard of anything like that.) There's not yet any sort of "LeafSpy" for the Rav, but Tony has outlined a procedure somewhere in here to estimate the remaining capacity. Basically you do an extended (aka 100%) charge and then disconnect the 12V battery for a while to "clear the GOM" - when you reboot the GOM will show the miles remaining based on a fixed miles/kWh figure, and from that you can get a decent estimate of capacity. Other factors like temperature might still come into play, so it's not an entirely foolproof method.

I'm not sure if you'd be able to go through all that when used car shopping, so you might just have to take a chance. Unlike the Leaf, there have not been any reports of Ravs with significant battery degradation (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.) Most likely, the battery's fine, and if you do an extended charge and keep it above 3 miles / kWh you should be able to go 115 miles no problem.

EDIT: and Tony beat me to the punch with his method. ;)
 
Rav4 EV Range Charts

100% Capacity

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1mybenqwoajun8/Rav4rangeChartV100.2.pdf?dl=0

90% Capacity (10% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bcv212xxsfd2vr/Rav4rangeChartV90.2.pdf?dl=0

80% Capacity (20% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddfjojy6d29q8zf/Rav4rangeChartV80.2.pdf?dl=0

70% Capacity (30% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20y8b9xhdyps3ht/Rav4rangeChartV70.2.pdf?dl=0


Rav4rangeChartV100_1.jpg



When new:
41.8kWh usable- 100% SOC
35.0kWh usable- 83.0% SOC
1.0kWh unusable- 2.2% SOC





Here's what 50% looks like WHEN NEW, with 10 of 16 fuel bar segments illuminated (at 70% capacity / 30% degradation, it will be in the middle at 8 or 16 fuel bar segments). Disregard what the GOM says:


52F3CCEE-2C99-4723-BC7A-59571D7D07CD-1979-000000BF1636F506.jpg




Miles Gained per Hour Charging @ 87.5% charger efficiency
70F Ambient temperature - hotter or colder will decrease miles gained
Amps/Volts -- Where ---- City Drive ----- 65mph
--------------------- 2.7 miles/kWh - 3.4 miles/kWh

12 / 120 ------- Any ------ 2.8 miles ------ 3.5 miles (stock cable supplied with car)
16 / 120 ------- Any ------ 3.8 miles ------ 4.7 miles (JESLA with NEMA 5-20)
12 / 240 ------ Home ----- 6.8 miles ------ 8.6 miles (EVSEupgrade.com mod to stock cable)
16 / 208 ------ Public ----- 7.5 miles ------ 9.5 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
16 / 240 ------ Home ----- 8.9 miles ----- 11.2 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
20 / 208 ------ Public ----- 9.4 miles ----- 11.9 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
20 / 240 ------ Home ---- 11.0 miles ----- 13.9 miles (Clipper Creek LCS-25)
24 / 240 ------ Home ---- 13.6 miles ----- 17.7 miles (JESLA w/NEMA 14-30 or 10-30)
30 / 208 ------ Public ---- 14.8 miles ----- 18.7 miles (typical public J1772)
30 / 240 ------ Home ---- 17.1 miles ----- 21.6 miles (rare public J1772)
40 / 208 ------ Public ---- 18.5 miles ----- 23.4 miles (Tesla Roadster/Clipper Creek)
40 / 240 ------ Home ---- 22.7 miles ----- 28.5 miles (JESLA w/NEMA 14-50 or 6-50)
 
The miles shown is a bit lower than what mine seems to average.
But the number does fluctuate based on usage and some random unknown factors.
My number drifts down at times and then seems to pop right back up for unknown reasons.
Tony has the best guide if the seller will accommodate the test.
 
Thanks for all the help, guys! I went and checked it out, but I didn't get the feeling that they wanted to drop down much (if at all) below 32 grand, and that's a bit too much for me. Maybe a year ago, but with the Soul EV and 2016 Leaf both (soon) out and with 100+ miles of real range _plus_ fast charging built in, I don't think I'm going to be paying that much. We'll see if it sits on the lot for a month or two.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, after markdowns and rebates, people we paying mid 30s for these cars new just a year ago. If these things are selling now for the low 30s, that makes them collector's items more than just cars! haha
 
pkulak said:
Thanks for all the help, guys! I went and checked it out, but I didn't get the feeling that they wanted to drop down much (if at all) below 32 grand, and that's a bit too much for me. Maybe a year ago, but with the Soul EV and 2016 Leaf both (soon) out and with 100+ miles of real range _plus_ fast charging built in, I don't think I'm going to be paying that much. We'll see if it sits on the lot for a month or two.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, after markdowns and rebates, people we paying mid 30s for these cars new just a year ago. If these things are selling now for the low 30s, that makes them collector's items more than just cars! haha

There's not a lot of similarity between a LEAF and a Rav4 EV, except that they are EVs with four wheels and four doors. If they were both gasoline cars, would you consider a Nissan Versa and a gasoline Rav4 ?

The cars hold their value because people like them. Mine is reluctantly for sale, but it doesn't sound like you really want a Rav4... you just want an EV. Even with a 107 mile EPA range, I absolutely guarantee that the Rav4 will run circles around the LEAF, while hauling more stuff, more room, more range, more power, etc. The Rav4 can make that 115 mile trip without a recharge, and with a comfortable reserve. Even the new 107 mile LEAF or the Kia Soul EV won't do that comfortably.

It may be wise to consider resale value... I know what it is for a LEAF !!! Poor.
 
TonyWilliams said:
It may be wise to consider resale value... I know what it is for a LEAF !!! Poor.
Yep... but on the flip side, it's good for buyers. :)

As I posted at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=430825#p430825, I bought a '13 Leaf SV w/premium package (build month of 5/2013) and all its capacity bars (still has them, SOH and Hx from Leaf Spy seem to be hovering around 89 or 90 and Ahr rating is ~59.xx to 60.xx still) for $9,325 + tax and license.

Recently, it seemed like the prices have risen (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=435924#p435924) but I expect them to fall again due to the '16 30 kWh Leaf SV and SL and low gas prices.
 
fooljoe said:
Here you go: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=20619

Could even luck out and get a new battery next year.
Seems on the high side, esp. if it ends up not qualifying for a replacement. Might need some Phoenix "heat treatment"...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20608 has some Manheim auction results (likely for licensed dealers only) for Altanta. Look at the amounts with commas[USD].
 
Hi guys,

Today, I test drove a nice 2013, 35k miles. My biggest question is regarding the battery and how to determine if the battery is in a good or bad shape.

Here are the things I noticed:
[*] With battery almost full, the range meter on the driver's display said 66 miles with AC off, 61 with eco mode on
[*] The charge meter said it would take 30 minutes to charge fully.
[*] On my test drive, I saw that my the distance meter (rightside drivers display)said I could go +4 miles more than the left side range indiactor
[*] I drove for 1 hour, freeway and city, and my average was 2.8kWh per mile

Regarding the displayed range: I don't know how long the car was sitting for in the dealer's lot, and I don't know much about the Rav4's battery system. I'm more familiar with the Model S's (owned for 3 years). Is the displayed range something that can go up if I recalibrate the battery (by discharging from 100% -> near 0%) a few times?

Questions:
[*] 66 miles displayed range with nearly full battery seems low, no?
[*] When a car is new, what should the displayed miles be? (standard vs extended)
[*] What else can I do to tell battery health?

Thanks all for the help


Some pics:
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The most definitive, quantitative way to measure the battery capacity / degradation is shown here:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518
 
tgreene said:
The most definitive, quantitative way to measure the battery capacity / degradation is shown here:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518

Thanks for that.

Does the dealer have diagnostics that tell them battery condition? Can dealers be trusted when they say something like "the battery is fine"?
 
tdiggity said:
tgreene said:
The most definitive, quantitative way to measure the battery capacity / degradation is shown here:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518

Thanks for that.

Does the dealer have diagnostics that tell them battery condition? Can dealers be trusted when they say something like "the battery is fine"?
Unless you talk to a Toyota EV Certified technician who hooked up his computer to the car, they don't know anything more than you about that specific car.

The "Tony Test" linked above is the best way to know the degradation state of the battery. I would feel relatively comfortable with the given "rated range" number if the ambient temp was over 55F and the 12V battery was disconnected for an hour. If you're really worried about it, I would insist on doing that test before buying it.
 
The Tony test is the only way to go. All of the things you noted are within normal expectations if someone has been driving it on lots of short trips and/or with a lead foot.
 
To be perfectly honest, the odds of having a bad battery for any Tesla powered product is exceedingly tiny.

Those batteries, of course, will degrade as all batteries. We have found that 10 to 15% of degradation is possible at 50,000 miles, with 15 to 20% likely at 100,000 miles.

Unlike the Nissan LEAF, the battery is fully protected from extreme temperatures so the degradation results are relatively uniform across the fleet. There won't be a big difference between a car that's been its entire life in Phoenix and one that spends its life in North Dakota.

If the battery is in fact bad (in other words there's a failure of the battery), it is covered by an 8 year 100,000 mile warranty... you have nothing to fear.

I highly recommend getting a warranty for the entire car for the period of time you intend to use your RAV4 EV. You can buy the Toyota Platinum warranty for up to 10 years and 125,000 miles. Do not be lulled into buying a warranty that is not a Toyota Platinum warranty.
 
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