cashcow
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:26 pm

Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

Why is it that the 40Kwh model S is EPA rated 139 miles while our Rav4 EV is rated 103 miles?

Image

http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ ... atures.pdf

Model S 40 RWD

Weight: 4647.3 lbs
196″ L x 77″ W x 57″ H
Drag Coefficient of 0.24

Rav4 EV FWD

Weight: 4,032 lbs lbs
180″ L x 72″ W x 66″ H
Drag Coefficient of 0.30

It looks like all Tesla Model S 40 were 60 kwh packs software limited

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/co ... kwh_packs/

That means those EPA numbers for the 40 were for a car that was limited to 40KWh but running with a heavier 60 Kwh pack!

The plain differences I see are FWD Vs RWD , 0.24 Vs 0.30 Drag Co, and also our Rav4 EV stands higher.

Interestingly the Toyota Dismantling Manual says: A fully charged RAV4 EV will travel
approximately 152 miles (245 km). http://prius20.ru/instructions/dismantl ... man2nd.pdf
davewill
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Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

Because the RAV has a normal and an extended charge mode, the EPA reports the range as an average between the two. I'm not sure the model S had to do that. However it's​ mostly because it's a much less efficient vehicle.
miimura
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Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

If memory serves me, the max EPA range from an Extended Charge on the RAV4 EV was 113 miles and the 103 miles on the sticker is the average with the Standard Charge. However, the main difference is the MPGe difference between the two cars. One more minor factor is that Tesla battery packs don't have usable kWh equal to its model number.

From the Calculate usable battery capacity based on rated miles values thread at TMC:
wk057 wrote:Original 60 - ~61 kWh total capacity, ~58.5 kWh usable.
85/P85/85D/P85D - ~81.5 kWh total capacity, ~77.5 kWh usable
90D/P90D - ~85.8 kWh total capacity, 81.8 kWh usable
Original 70 - ~71.2 kWh total capacity, 68.8 kWh usable
75/75D - 75 kWh total capacity, 72.6 kWh usable
Software limited 60/60D - 62.4 kWh usable
Software limited 70/70D - 65.9 kWh usable

Edit: For clarification, the larger packs use a 4 kWh bottom lockout and the smaller packs use a 2.4 kWh bottom lockout. This capacity (included in the "total capacity" numbers above) is NOT usable for driving or other purposes.
The notable thing about the 100kWh pack is that its usable capacity is actually slightly over 100kWh.
2012 Shoreline Blue #1462 w/JdeMO | 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR | 4.32kW Motech/Enphase PV Solar + 2x Powerwall 2 AC| Leviton EVB40 40A & Jesla Home Charging | 2015 e-Golf LE (returned)
cashcow
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:26 pm

Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

Hi Dave,

But why is the RAV4 EV a much less efficient vehicle when compared with the old 40 kwh model S? It has just about the same power train as the old 40 Kwh model S? Main difference likely being ours has a parking pawl instead of an electronic brake? Would the difference in firmware make a difference in terms of algorithms? Like less aggressive Regen?

I would guess that the Drag Coefficient number also takes away from the available range of the RAV4 EV. I don't know how much of an effect FWD Vs RWD would have.


CONS:
Higher Drag Coefficient
Stands 9 Inches Taller

PROS:
615.3 Lbs Lighter
5 Inches Narrower (Frontal Area Drag? Though overall still have higher CD)

DEBATABLE:
FWD?

Hi Miimura

I recall Tony saying "103 EPA rating from an average of 92 (Normal charge 80%) and 113 (Extended Charge 100%)" or something along those lines.

So I see that the 60 Kwh pack was actually 61 Kwh with 58.5 Kwh usable.... Do we actually know how much usable Kwh was available in the Model S 40? Was it more than our 41.8 Kwh? How much usable Kwh does our RAV4 EV pack provide?

From: http://www.myrav4ev.com/rav4-ev-specs
Tony Williams says:
November 27, 2012 at 9:14 am

I just pumped over 50kWh into the car, from “Turtle” mode to 100% “extended range” mode:

Sunday, Nov 19, 2012:
00:57:03 until 08:10:32 – 49.909 kWh (7 hours 13.5 minutes)

Looks like a little cell balancing followed by a top off charge two hours thirty minutes later:

10:40:58 until 11:07:04 0.509 kWh (26 minutes)
Todd says:
April 22, 2013 at 10:50 pm

Panasonic also has 18650 cells with 2350 and 3100 mAh capacities. If 2350mAh cells were used the capacity would be a closer 39.1kWh , alternatively if the 3100mAh cells were used the capacity would 51.6 kWh which matches the earlier comment by Tony.
and also viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72
TonyWilliams wrote:Ok, here's some real data:

This is a Turtle to 100% "extended range" charge:

2012-Nov-18

Average Power:
7.202 kW (Blink 30amp EVSE)


00:57:03 until 08:10:32 - 49.909 kWh (7 hours 13.5 minutes)


Looks like a little cell balancing followed by a top off charge two hours thirty minutes later:

10:40:58 until 11:07:04 0.509 kWh (26 minutes)


So, what can we learn from this?

1) I'm quickly warming up to the idea that the battery is really bigger than I originally thought, which means it's a REAL PIG in efficiency !!!

2) 49.909 + 0.509 = about 50.4, but some of that was discharged during the cell balancing. I'll say 50.2kWh. Then, we have to estimate the charger efficiency, which I'll just say 85% = 42.67kWh in the battery
Then, we have to add about 2.39% at the bottom of the battery of the battery = 1kWh (0.0239 * 41.8kWh)

42.67 + 1 = 43.67kWh stored energy (about 87.3% of estimated 50kWh advertised / rated size)

Then, I'll take 94.75% of that (0.9475 * 43.67) = 41.4kWh calculated useable capacity

Ok, I will believe that there is 41.8kWh "officially" useable in that 860 pound battery. Don't ya just love numbers?

NOTE: All of this is assuming no power was used for battery temperature control (or more accurately, the 85% charger efficiency reflects all power losses).
Last edited by cashcow on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
TonyWilliams
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Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

Tesla battery configurations:

99s * 69p = 6831 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 64.8kWh (Roadster)

96s * 86p = 8256 cells * (3400mah * 3.65v) = 102.5kWh ("100" car)

96s * 74p = 7104 cells * (3400mah * 3.65v) = 88.1kWh ("90" car)

96s * 74p = 7104 cells * (3100mah * 3.65v) = 80.4kWh ("85" car)

92s * 48p = 4416 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 41.9kWh (2012-2014 RAV4 EV)

88s * 22p = 1936 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 18.3kWh (Smart ED)

84s * 74p = 6216 cells * (3400mah * 3.65v) = 77.1kWh ("75" car and software limited "70" and "60")

84s * 74p = 6216 cells * (3100mah * 3.65v) = 71.3kWh ("70" car)

84s * 64p = 5376 cells * (3100mah * 3.65v) = 60.8kWh ("60" car and software limited "40")

84s * 44p = 3696 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 35.1kWh
(2014 - newer Mercedes B-Class ED / B250e)
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tony Williams
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Vista, California 92081 USA
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www.QCcharge.com
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cashcow
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Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

Hi Tony!

Thank you for much for that valuable information. What do you think the software limited usable capacity was on those Tesla Model S 40s /w 60.8kWh Traction Battery? Do you think it is more than our 41.8 Kwh Woftware limited 50 KWh Packs?

I say that we have 50 KWh packs only because that seems to be the general guess from what I see in the forums. Somewhere around 50 KWh or a little less.
TonyWilliams
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Contact: Website

Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

I suspect the software limited 40 was real close to 40kwh.

Our RAV4 EVs were close to that number when new.

The two cars are different, so it's no surprise that EPA data is different. Even the EPA tests were different.

The actual physical size of the RAV4 battery is listed above:

92s * 44p = 4416 cells * (2600mah * 3.65v) = 41.9kWh (2012-2014 RAV4 EV)

It's fun to read my quote from almost 5 years ago, when we could only guess, but I don't think we factored in charger losses:

50kWh consumed from the wall is about 83% of 41.8kWh. Obviously, I don't know how accurate the meter was (that I used), nor would 41.8kWh be usable in hindsight. Maybe about 40kWh absolute maximum.
Tony Williams
QC Charge
1497 Poinsettia Avenue, Suite 154
Vista, California 92081 USA
sales@QCcharge.com
www.QCcharge.com
Twitter: QCPower
1-844-EV-PARTS
1-844-387-2787
1-760-798-0342 Office
Hours M-F, 9-5 Pacific Time
davewill
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Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:42 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

miimura wrote:If memory serves me, the max EPA range from an Extended Charge on the RAV4 EV was 113 miles and the 103 miles on the sticker is the average with the Standard Charge. However, the main difference is the MPGe difference between the two cars. ...
That's half of the difference right there. The higher drag coefficient, higher ground clearance, the larger, heavier tires, and the fact that Tesla didn't spend tons of engineering time trying to improve the RAV's range are more than enough to explain the rest.
cashcow
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:26 pm

Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

The tires on the MS look quite big to me but I never did check if they were bigger or wider than the RAV4 EV. Though bigger tires ... still the RAV4 EV weighs less than the model S by a good amount I'd think.


Higher Ground Clearance and Drag wouldn't these two be related to one another. Higher ground clearance I'd think would increase drag so the drag would already represent it?

Looking at things this way it would seem the main thing is the higher drag, so if we were to lower the RAV4 EV's Drag by 0.06 to be the same as the Model S does this mean we would have just about the similar range in terms of what the EPA states?

I think the rav4 EV is smaller than the Model S. It is shorter and less wide and in terms of height ours is an SUV so it comes naturally high standing. If the RAV4 EV were to be lowered it might just stand very close to the Model S. When I mention the smaller attributes it reminds me of the 2000 honda insight which was a pretty small car but very efficient.

If a reduction in drag of 0.06 equals about +36 miles of range can we extrapolate this to see just how much range we can get from a RAV4 EV with a drag co of 0.10?

600×0.06=36
600×0.2=120 ?

I'd be quite happy with an extra 120 miles for a total range of 223 miles.

Then we can hit weight reduction and hit 250 miles of range :)

And then of course add a second motor in the back... and hopefully get a little more out of it all :P
cashcow
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Re: Rav4 EV 41.8 kWh 103 miles Vs Model S 40kwh 139 miles?

davewill wrote:The higher drag coefficient, higher ground clearance, the larger, heavier tires, and....
I kept wondering if our RAV4 EV does indeed have larger and heavier wheels than the 2013 Tesla Model S. Every time I see the Model S I always notice it has pretty big wheels, so I checked to see if it was true:
"19" cast aluminum wheels with all-season tires (Goodyear Eagle RS-A2 245/45R19). Note: optional 21" wheels come with Continental Extreme Contact DW 245/35R21 tires"

According to "http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showwiki ... el+S+-+FAQ":
Quote:
--
"Width:
19x8 for 19" wheels
21x8.5 for 21" wheels

Weights:
19" Wheels: 13.74kg ~30lbs each (according to a Tesla engineer)
19" All Season Tires: 27lbs each (according to Tire Rack for Eagle RS-A2 245/45 19")

21" Wheels: 35lbs
21" Continental ExtremeContact DW Tires: 26lbs"
And here is a quote from Tony I found in the forums:
The current wheels on the RAV4 EV are the same as the V6 Limited:


Tire -------------------Rim ------Bolt pattern---Thread--Center Bore (mm)
225/65 R17------6.5Jx17 ET39---5x114.3----M12 x 1.5----60.1 (base)
225/65 R17------7Jx17 ET39-----5x114.3----M12 x 1.5----60.1 (V6 Limited, EV)
235/55 R18------7.5Jx18 ET40---5x114.3----M12 x 1.5----60.1 (Sport)
So our Rav4 EV has a single option and the 2013 Tesla Model S has two options:

225/65R17 Rav4 EV
245/45R19 Model S
245/35R21 Model S

The 2013 Tesla Model s has wider and taller wheels so I do not believe that we have the larger wheels. As for the weight:

viewtopic.php?p=25510
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=778&start=20
On an ICE forum they said the 17" limited wheels weighed 23 lbs 6 oz each. With stock tires someone said it was 51 lbs. I could be wrong but with a pair of lightweight wheels from TireRack you could save quite a bit of weight.....

Again, assuming its the same wheel as the ICE limited, its a 17x7" wheel. The same width as the Enkei Racing RPF1's which are the lightest wheels TireRack offers for the Rav4.
The Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires are 26 lbs each.
The Bridgstone Ecopia EP422 tires are 24 lbs each.
There are plenty more options but I know those are two popular tires.

So with Enkei Racing RPF1's and Bridgstone Ecopia EP422 your total would be 47lbs, 6 oz roughly.
If the stock set up is 51 lbs you'd be saving about 4 lbs 6 oz.
I'm looking into this again. I just weighed my stock wheels and tires, they are 45.6lbs.

The 16" Enkei RPF1's 17x7" are 14.6lbs
Ecopia EP422 are 25lbs
Champion Fuel Fighter tires are 25lbs

That would be 39.6lbs total, per wheel. A savings of only 6lbs per wheel.
225/65R17 Rav4 EV 45.6lbs lbs Total?
245/45R19 Model S 30+27 lbs
245/35R21 Model S 35+26 lbs

It also appears that we don't have the heavier tires! So what else is there left?

Our RAV4 EV is

Lighter
Narrower
Shorter
Lighter Wheels
Smaller Wheels?

So to add to the old table:

CONS:
Higher Drag Coefficient
Stands 9 Inches Taller

PROS:
615.3 Lbs Lighter
5 Inches Narrower (Frontal Area Drag? Though overall still have higher CD)
Narrower & Smaller Wheels

DEBATABLE:
FWD?

And regarding the fact that our RAV4 EV stands 9 Inches Taller... does this measurement take into account the higher stature or is it just body tallness? Because SUVs stand higher due to factory suspension configuration. If the height of the body of our RAV4 EV is closer to the height of the body of the 2013 Tesla Model S ... then the RAV4 EV's Body Drag Co might actually be lower by design. It's just that it stands taller because it is an SUV, and if that affects Drag Co by that much then doing a suspension Mod to lower it (Like they did for pike's peak) then the RAV4 EV's Drag Co could experience a noticeable increase in Drag Co Efficiency....

That's just my take on it !

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