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 Post subject: Is the battery bad on a car I wish to purchase
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:18 pm
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http://i.imgur.com/C4X2dah.jpg

Looking into a Rav4 EV that's near me for sale by a dealer. Looks like the GOM says 72 miles for a nearly-full battery. Is the battery hosed, or is this normal? I was kinda hoping that I could make a 115-mile trip, otherwise it's probably not worth it to me. Also, is there any way to figure out the battery capacity remaining? Any Leaf Spy for Rav4 EVs? Thanks for any help!


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 581
pkulak wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/C4X2dah.jpg

Looking into a Rav4 EV that's near me for sale by a dealer. Looks like the GOM says 72 miles for a nearly-full battery. Is the battery hosed, or is this normal? I was kinda hoping that I could make a 115-mile trip, otherwise it's probably not worth it to me. Also, is there any way to figure out the battery capacity remaining? Any Leaf Spy for Rav4 EVs? Thanks for any help!


The GOM (guess-o-meter) predicts the range based on the last driven miles.
If this car is at a dealer ship, everyone will like to try the torque and doesn't drive economically
It is already down 2 blocks from a normal charge (around 80% of battery capacity)
I think the battery is not in a bad shape to be honest.

The real range is depending how you will drive it.
As soon as you go over 60 mph, every mile faster, it will suck the energy faster and faster from the battery.
Energy need is not linear to speed, more like ^2 of it .
You also don't want to tap into the last 20% of your battery too often.
When I charge my rav4 to the normal 80%, I often see a range of 110-120 miles on the display.
If you can control acceleration, and limit top speed to 65, you will be able to drive 90-100 miles without getting the low battery warning (last 20%).
But it really takes an effort!
And that is without things like heating/cooling (cooling is not as much a energy hog as the heater). Also when it is raining, you need more energy to push away the rain drops. All draining your battery faster.
So if you have a lead foot, want to drive like a normal ICE car and you need to drive 115 miles trip on a frequent basis, I would go for a tesla model S.
The only car full electric car that can do that and still have charge left.

just my $0.02

_________________
Entune: plugfed | OpenEvse wifi controlled L1/L2 charging
silver 2014 vin: 3533 24k miles, 2 x GEM EV
past ev's: 3 yr leaf 30k, 3yr rav4ev 34k


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:18 pm
Posts: 3
Thanks! I'm looking for a replacement for my Leaf that just came off lease. If it can _barely_ make it the 115 miles, that's okay. I only do it a few times a year. It would be a "nice to have", really. And that's just until I get a JDEMO into it, which would really turn it into one hell of a car. I just want to make sure I'm not getting something with a roasted battery. :)

EDIT: I also just realized that by default the battery doesn't actually charge all the way. haha


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:55 pm
Posts: 581
pkulak wrote:
Thanks! I'm looking for a replacement for my Leaf that just came off lease. If it can _barely_ make it the 115 miles, that's okay. I only do it a few times a year. It would be a "nice to have", really. And that's just until I get a JDEMO into it, which would really turn it into one hell of a car. I just want to make sure I'm not getting something with a roasted battery. :)

EDIT: I also just realized that by default the battery doesn't actually charge all the way. haha



If you do the full charge, and you drive defensively , you should get close to 140 miles if needed.
So your 115 couple of times a year is not a problem.
With the JDEMO you won't even blink (no pun intended) about that distance. 15 minute charge in the middle and you will easily make the 115 miles, even driving 80 mph ;-)

Best bang for the buck in EV imho, and that won't change for a while ;-)

_________________
Entune: plugfed | OpenEvse wifi controlled L1/L2 charging
silver 2014 vin: 3533 24k miles, 2 x GEM EV
past ev's: 3 yr leaf 30k, 3yr rav4ev 34k


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3826
Location: San Diego
RAV4 EV battery default "Rated Range":

viewtopic.php?p=20518#p20518


1) Fully charge vehicle using "Extended" with the J1772 port (not CHAdeMO)

2) Battery must be at room temperature. When you charge the RAV4 EV to 100% full on extended charge, it will be warm. If you park in an enclosed garage with outside temps in the 50F-60F, the battery will likely still be warm enough in 4-8 hours.

3) MAKE SURE THE CAR IS OFF !!!

4) Disconnect all 3 of the 12 volt battery negative cables, and leave it that way overnight. This will require removal of the M8 wing nut for JdeMO equipped vehicles, or a 12mm socket to remove the M8 hex nut. The cabin climate control will automatically go to OFF with battery disconnect.


***** Next day: ******


5) Reconnect 12 volt battery

6) Hold foot on brake and press START button with key fob nearby just once

7) Energy "fuel" gauge will show Full (16 illuminated segments) and "LO" on the GOM

8) Wait for navigation unit to complete its start up (about 20 seconds)

9) Press START with brake pedal depressed a second time. You will hear a clunk of the main battery contactors under the front passenger seat and the dash should indicate "READY". The cabin climate control must be off. If it was not off, there is some issue prior to this step.

10) The displayed range is "RATED RANGE" at 3.5 miles per kWh

11) Divide this Rated Range by 146 to get usable battery capacity compared to new.

Example: 142 rated range / 146 = 97.2% battery capacity from new


********


Additional driving test:


If you drive the RAV4 EV at my standard test speed of 100km / 62mph ground speed, it will go almost EXACTLY the rated range.

TEST DRIVING PROTOCOL - dry, hard surface level road with no wind or cabin climate control with new condition battery at 70F, no elevation changes, "out-and-back" or loop course to compensate for any wind, 62mph / 100km/h GROUND speed as measured by GPS.

So, if the car is new, it will bang out 146 miles and the rated range will be 146 under the prescribed conditions.

If the rated range is 135, it will go 135 miles.


********


What is lost and needs to be reset with a 12 volt disconnect:

viewtopic.php?p=20859#p20859

1) Cabin climate control is Off. Make appropriate settings.

2) Stored radio / SiriusXM stations will remain, however your last station listened to will likely be gone

3) Cell phone pairings are not 100%. You may have to delete your phone (and the RAV4 from your phone) and re-pair them

4) Map display mode

5) Volume of navigation voice notifications

6) Random play modes

7) Charge schedule will be retained, but it won't work without hitting the "SAVE" button on the previous screen. Check the programmed settings first, then go back to the previous page to press Save. It won't save the data any other way.

8) State selection from Destination address page


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:20 am
Posts: 691
Location: Seal Beach, CA
There's absolutely no way you can determine the health of the battery from anything in that screenshot (unless it looked like that right after a full charge, but I've never heard of anything like that.) There's not yet any sort of "LeafSpy" for the Rav, but Tony has outlined a procedure somewhere in here to estimate the remaining capacity. Basically you do an extended (aka 100%) charge and then disconnect the 12V battery for a while to "clear the GOM" - when you reboot the GOM will show the miles remaining based on a fixed miles/kWh figure, and from that you can get a decent estimate of capacity. Other factors like temperature might still come into play, so it's not an entirely foolproof method.

I'm not sure if you'd be able to go through all that when used car shopping, so you might just have to take a chance. Unlike the Leaf, there have not been any reports of Ravs with significant battery degradation (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though.) Most likely, the battery's fine, and if you do an extended charge and keep it above 3 miles / kWh you should be able to go 115 miles no problem.

EDIT: and Tony beat me to the punch with his method. ;)

_________________
ImageRavCharge.com | 2012 Classic Silver | 2011 Leaf | Clipper Creek CS-60 | 40 amp openEVSE | 3.84kw PV


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3826
Location: San Diego
Rav4 EV Range Charts

100% Capacity

https://www.dropbox.com/s/u1mybenqwoaju ... 2.pdf?dl=0

90% Capacity (10% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3bcv212xxsfd2 ... 2.pdf?dl=0

80% Capacity (20% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ddfjojy6d29q8 ... 2.pdf?dl=0

70% Capacity (30% degradation)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/20y8b9xhdyps3 ... 2.pdf?dl=0


Image


When new:
41.8kWh usable- 100% SOC
35.0kWh usable- 83.0% SOC
1.0kWh unusable- 2.2% SOC





Here's what 50% looks like WHEN NEW, with 10 of 16 fuel bar segments illuminated (at 70% capacity / 30% degradation, it will be in the middle at 8 or 16 fuel bar segments). Disregard what the GOM says:


Image



Miles Gained per Hour Charging @ 87.5% charger efficiency
70F Ambient temperature - hotter or colder will decrease miles gained
Amps/Volts -- Where ---- City Drive ----- 65mph
--------------------- 2.7 miles/kWh - 3.4 miles/kWh

12 / 120 ------- Any ------ 2.8 miles ------ 3.5 miles (stock cable supplied with car)
16 / 120 ------- Any ------ 3.8 miles ------ 4.7 miles (JESLA with NEMA 5-20)
12 / 240 ------ Home ----- 6.8 miles ------ 8.6 miles (EVSEupgrade.com mod to stock cable)
16 / 208 ------ Public ----- 7.5 miles ------ 9.5 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
16 / 240 ------ Home ----- 8.9 miles ----- 11.2 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
20 / 208 ------ Public ----- 9.4 miles ----- 11.9 miles (2013+ LEAF EVSEupgrade)
20 / 240 ------ Home ---- 11.0 miles ----- 13.9 miles (Clipper Creek LCS-25)
24 / 240 ------ Home ---- 13.6 miles ----- 17.7 miles (JESLA w/NEMA 14-30 or 10-30)
30 / 208 ------ Public ---- 14.8 miles ----- 18.7 miles (typical public J1772)
30 / 240 ------ Home ---- 17.1 miles ----- 21.6 miles (rare public J1772)
40 / 208 ------ Public ---- 18.5 miles ----- 23.4 miles (Tesla Roadster/Clipper Creek)
40 / 240 ------ Home ---- 22.7 miles ----- 28.5 miles (JESLA w/NEMA 14-50 or 6-50)


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:03 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:51 pm
Posts: 520
The miles shown is a bit lower than what mine seems to average.
But the number does fluctuate based on usage and some random unknown factors.
My number drifts down at times and then seems to pop right back up for unknown reasons.
Tony has the best guide if the seller will accommodate the test.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:18 pm
Posts: 3
Thanks for all the help, guys! I went and checked it out, but I didn't get the feeling that they wanted to drop down much (if at all) below 32 grand, and that's a bit too much for me. Maybe a year ago, but with the Soul EV and 2016 Leaf both (soon) out and with 100+ miles of real range _plus_ fast charging built in, I don't think I'm going to be paying that much. We'll see if it sits on the lot for a month or two.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, after markdowns and rebates, people we paying mid 30s for these cars new just a year ago. If these things are selling now for the low 30s, that makes them collector's items more than just cars! haha


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 Post subject: Re: Is this battery toast?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:50 pm
Posts: 3826
Location: San Diego
pkulak wrote:
Thanks for all the help, guys! I went and checked it out, but I didn't get the feeling that they wanted to drop down much (if at all) below 32 grand, and that's a bit too much for me. Maybe a year ago, but with the Soul EV and 2016 Leaf both (soon) out and with 100+ miles of real range _plus_ fast charging built in, I don't think I'm going to be paying that much. We'll see if it sits on the lot for a month or two.

Especially since, if I remember correctly, after markdowns and rebates, people we paying mid 30s for these cars new just a year ago. If these things are selling now for the low 30s, that makes them collector's items more than just cars! haha


There's not a lot of similarity between a LEAF and a Rav4 EV, except that they are EVs with four wheels and four doors. If they were both gasoline cars, would you consider a Nissan Versa and a gasoline Rav4 ?

The cars hold their value because people like them. Mine is reluctantly for sale, but it doesn't sound like you really want a Rav4... you just want an EV. Even with a 107 mile EPA range, I absolutely guarantee that the Rav4 will run circles around the LEAF, while hauling more stuff, more room, more range, more power, etc. The Rav4 can make that 115 mile trip without a recharge, and with a comfortable reserve. Even the new 107 mile LEAF or the Kia Soul EV won't do that comfortably.

It may be wise to consider resale value... I know what it is for a LEAF !!! Poor.


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