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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:59 am 
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AltPowr wrote:
OK, thanks, I get it. Just a suggestion, but if the standard charge is at 100% and extended charge is selected, how about changing that line to display simply the following since the number of minutes here will almost always be wrong:
Extended Charge selected
I like the spirit of this idea. However, I could envision someone charging to full in normal mode, then deciding to switch to extended mode to top off, and being interested in how long that would take with a given voltage/amperage (I know I've been there), so I wouldn't want to just remove the calculated time-to-charge value.

Here's what I did (at least I think I did, as I haven't really had the occasion to test it yet): If you're at 100% with extended charge selected, it'll say the same as it does now, i.e. "hh:mm to extended charge", but add "(from 100% of normal)" to that before the "@ v volts a amps".

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:24 am 
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fooljoe wrote:
Here's what I did (at least I think I did, as I haven't really had the occasion to test it yet): If you're at 100% with extended charge selected, it'll say the same as it does now, i.e. "hh:mm to extended charge", but add "(from 100% of normal)" to that before the "@ v volts a amps".


Now that I know, it won't be a problem for me, so whatever you change is perfectly fine. Do you have enough room on the line for all those characters without changing font size? I don't think that would fit on my iPhone. But in any case, it still shows a number of minutes to charge which is incorrect 99% of the time. I absolutely get what you mean - that is "potentially" how much time it would take, and I agree that allowing us to move around the sliders to figure out how much time we need is smart. It really sucks that we can't get the right data.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:26 am 
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I just implemented a new feature: Early charge protection. Set the time before which you don't want the car to start charges, and the amps supplied by your EVSE, and RavCharge will periodically check to see if the car's estimated start time will be earlier than your "not before" time, and will adjust your departure time accordingly. This is still very much "in beta", so try it out and let me know how it goes!

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:10 am 
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You seem to be assuming 240V. So, if you happened to be using 208V 30A, you would set 26A in the ECP EVSE amps control? Also, that control only goes down to 21A. It would be nice if you could help compensate for the <20A bug too.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:42 am 
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miimura wrote:
You seem to be assuming 240V. So, if you happened to be using 208V 30A, you would set 26A in the ECP EVSE amps control?
No, you should set 30A. The voltage doesn't matter to the car! (Which is a big reason why its timer's so terrible.) The car calculates your time to charge based on your amperage alone: For anything greater than 20 amps the car does its calculations assuming ~140V. And for this feature, RavCharge doesn't care how long your charge will actually take - it's only concerned with making sure the car's screwy timer doesn't start too early.
miimura wrote:
Also, that control only goes down to 21A. It would be nice if you could help compensate for the <20A bug too.
I would like to add support for <=20A EVSEs as well, which the car assumes are L1 (Toyota would say it's not a bug, it's a feature! :lol:) However, I need to do some testing to determine what voltage exactly the car assumes L1 means, whether it uses a different efficiency factor, and whether it takes into account amperage on L1 or does something silly like figure all L1 EVSEs will charge at 12A despite the pilot signal. Also, I'd run into the problem of departure times sometimes needing to be pushed back by up to a whole day or possibly even more, which could lead to some weird results.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:49 am 
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miimura wrote:
Also, that control only goes down to 21A. It would be nice if you could help compensate for the <20A bug too.
Ok, I went ahead and did some testing to figure out the car's L1 calculations, so now I've updated it to work with <=20 (down to 6) EVSE amps. I am limiting the maximum amount of time that it will push back the departure time to 10 hours for now, however, to avoid "strange" conditions.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:27 pm 
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fooljoe wrote:
miimura wrote:
Also, that control only goes down to 21A. It would be nice if you could help compensate for the <20A bug too.
Ok, I went ahead and did some testing to figure out the car's L1 calculations, so now I've updated it to work with <=20 (down to 6) EVSE amps. I am limiting the maximum amount of time that it will push back the departure time to 10 hours for now, however, to avoid "strange" conditions.
That's great. Did you find anything unexpected in the way the car calculates things for 20 amps and below? Does it really assume 120V when the pilot is <=20A, no matter what the actual voltage is?

Of course, when you have an EVSE at or below 20A, even on 240V, the user still needs to check how long the charge will actually take and decide if they want to use the ECP at all on that day.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:58 pm 
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miimura wrote:
That's great. Did you find anything unexpected in the way the car calculates things for 20 amps and below? Does it really assume 120V when the pilot is <=20A, no matter what the actual voltage is?
Remember the car has no way of knowing the actual line voltage because it doesn't momentarily close the EVSE relays like other EVs do when plugging in and in timer mode, so yes, it really does just assume one voltage level for <=20A and another for 21A+.

If we assume 80% efficiency in either case, my testing indicates the car's time to charge calculations assume ~140V with a 21A or greater pilot signal, and ~70V with a 20A or less pilot. Of course the efficiency will actually be less on L1 (I measured 66% doing a 115V/16A charge yesterday), so I guess the assumed voltage is probably something a little higher - but of course it's only the product of voltage and efficiency that matters to the calculation, not the individual numbers. So the car's overestimation of charging time is not just limited to L2 charging, but percentage-wise the error will usually be a little less on L1.

As an aside, based on this testing I did actually adjust RavCharge's (actual) time to charge calculator to use a lower efficiency for L1 charging, and I'm looking into doing some more testing to determine whether I should maybe use some sort of continuous function for efficiency based on either the total power or just voltage. For example, it'd be interesting to know if the efficiency is the same charging at 240V/10A as it is at 120V/20A, and if it's the same at 240V/40A as it is at 240V/30A, etc. If anyone has done or wants to do some testing of their own let me know!

miimura wrote:
Of course, when you have an EVSE at or below 20A, even on 240V, the user still needs to check how long the charge will actually take and decide if they want to use the ECP at all on that day.
Yeah, with lower power charging it's quite likely that your charging will take longer than the typical 6-7 hour low rate window, so even if ECP can keep your charge from starting before the window starts, there's certainly no guarantee that it'll finish before the window's over, or even before you need to unplug and drive in the morning, for that matter.

I seriously doubt there will be many people on TOU that charge on L1 or very low power L2, anyway, but I suppose somebody who doesn't drive much could make use of this.

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 11:33 pm 
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fooljoe wrote:
miimura wrote:
Of course, when you have an EVSE at or below 20A, even on 240V, the user still needs to check how long the charge will actually take and decide if they want to use the ECP at all on that day.
Yeah, with lower power charging it's quite likely that your charging will take longer than the typical 6-7 hour low rate window, so even if ECP can keep your charge from starting before the window starts, there's certainly no guarantee that it'll finish before the window's over, or even before you need to unplug and drive in the morning, for that matter.

I seriously doubt there will be many people on TOU that charge on L1 or very low power L2, anyway, but I suppose somebody who doesn't drive much could make use of this.


Huzzah! My charging pattern has just changed to adapt to my new semester which started today. As such I will indeed be making much use of this new Ravcharge feature. It's easier to park the RAV4 in my garage on the side with the 20A/240V circuit (OpenEVSE set to 16A) in the interest of household harmony. I just got home and the car decided to start charging up from 20.6kWh SOC despite my 6AM charge deadline.

My current schedule has me start the day at 7:20A in downtown LA, return home at about 9A, then leave again in the middle of the day for a few hours (but this time to Woodland Hills). Then I come home in the afternoon and have night classes (again in Woodland Hills) some days in the week. The days with the night classes are not so much of an issue since I can avoid plugging in until after, but on the days without nights I don't want it to start charging right away when I get home. Since I'll never really be using more than 20kWh in the course of this (today I only used 14.4kWh), the 16A will do fine.

Do I need to change the timers in the car once I've set up ECP in RavCharge? Also, is there an option to have ECP only enabled for certain days like the start timers?

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 Post subject: Re: RavCharge, a solution to charge timer and entune woes
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:28 am 
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DevinL wrote:
My current schedule has me start the day at 7:20A in downtown LA, return home at about 9A, then leave again in the middle of the day for a few hours (but this time to Woodland Hills). Then I come home in the afternoon and have night classes (again in Woodland Hills) some days in the week. The days with the night classes are not so much of an issue since I can avoid plugging in until after, but on the days without nights I don't want it to start charging right away when I get home. Since I'll never really be using more than 20kWh in the course of this (today I only used 14.4kWh), the 16A will do fine.

Do I need to change the timers in the car once I've set up ECP in RavCharge? Also, is there an option to have ECP only enabled for certain days like the start timers?
I wouldn't recommend a change to your departure timer based on switching ECP on, but I would recommend changing your departure timer (significantly) based on your new schedule/EVSE settings. The idea is you program your departure timer to be late enough so it doesn't start too early for your ordinary usage pattern, but you leave ECP on to catch those times when you take the battery way down and/or want to do an extended charge, so your usual departure timer wouldn't be late enough.

In your case with a 16A EVSE, you have to account for the car thinking that you're charging on 120V, so you've got to move your departure timer wayyyy back. When the car sees a 16A pilot it assumes you will charge at ~900W (at the pack not the wall.) So if you expect to be using up to 20 kwh (i.e. going down to ~43% SOC), that means the car thinks it'll take you about 22.5 hours to charge (including its 20 minute extra buffer)! So you'd need to set your car's departure timer to 10:30 pm, while if you start your charges at midnight they'll actually finish around 6:40 am. :roll:

Then you can set ECP to midnight to account for days when you might use more than 20kwh, but of course if you're trying to charge from midnight to 6am you won't be making that anyway, since your actual charge rate is about 3kw. Setting ECP to 11pm might work out better. And of course have your RavCharge start timer set for around midnight as well to account for days where you'll use fewer kwh, and for days when the car's timer just up and decides not to work.

Unfortunately having your departure timer set so late means that you'll probably get home and plug in before you've passed the departure time, in which case the car will probably start charging immediately. So to account for that you'd want to just have your departure timer set for 1 day a week (when you get home late I suppose) and rely on RavCharge to start your charges otherwise. ECP will serve to make sure that your charges don't start too early on that day. You could also possibly use an EVSE timer to make sure your EVSE isn't turned on until after the departure time has passed. Living with a Rav and a low power EVSE ain't easy!

I'll think about adding the option of selecting different days for ECP, but it would be a rather extensive effort to change it from the way I have it set up, and I'm not sure I see the value of it given my idea of how ECP is best exploited.

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