Support a Green Grid, and Earn Money While You Sleep!

Attention East Bay (SF Bay Area) residents! You can now enroll in a new smart charging program. This offer is available now through November 28, and time is of the essence! More details about the PG&E supply-side pilot are available on the Olivine website or on our sign-up page.

• Get $150 off a new JuiceBox Pro - only $449 for a smart-grid charging station
• Receive a $150 payment for existing JuiceBox Pro 40 or JuiceBox Green 40 customers
• Receive a $50 payment plus get a free upgrade to a JuiceBox Pro 40

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Before you start holding your breath waiting for your money from EMW, I suggest you read the PEV pilot thread where they reneged on the free juice box.

srl99 said:

Before you start holding your breath waiting for your money from EMW, I suggest you read the PEV pilot thread where they reneged on the free juice box.

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I don't think that is completely fair. The power companies moved the goalposts several times, and UL certification was not part of the original plan. So you can't really blame EMW for shipping products that didn't match changing criteria. I was also an early adopter, but since I received a portion of the rebate, and got a lot of good use out of the Juicebox, I decided to keep mine. I actually decided not to participate in the program (although that had more to do with the questionable cost savings of separate metering with solar), but EMW was more than fair to offer to rebate most of the cost difference of the price of the Juicebox and the rebates that were paid if I did return it.

I think my warning/advice to read the other thread is more than fair. I also returned a pilot JB and got a refund.

To tell people EMW took full payment for a product they weren't prepared to deliver, is also fair.

We don't broach unfair until we ask what happened to all those returned JBs? Ever see a refurb JB sold???

srl99 said:

I think my warning/advice to read the other thread is more than fair. I also returned a pilot JB and got a refund.
To tell people EMW took full payment for a product they weren't prepared to deliver, is also fair.
We don't broach unfair until we ask what happened to all those returned JBs? Ever see a refurb JB sold???

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No, this is not fair. eMotorWerks have put a lot of effort into the PEV Pilot, and they were the only entity that kept it going. All other MDMAs have dropped out and the remaining ones, despite their experience and considerable resources, have not been able to place more than six devices in the field. Not enough to collect sufficient data for the PUC to make any future determination regarding EVSE submetering. This speaks to the difficulty of the PEV Pilot. Refurbished JuiceBoxes have been successfully sold. All early pilot participants, including yourself, have been taken care of, and they were offered alternatives to help resolve the situation. I'm sorry that you feel this way, [Moderator's Edit: No personal information.], but your continued sour grapes are really not appropriate.

The PEV sub-metering pilot could have been executed in a much more straight forward fashion using only utility-owned equipment. What could be simpler than putting a conventional meter socket box in the place of a 14-50 socket and moving the socket to be after the sub-meter? Simply designating that SmartMeter as a sub-meter in the billing system would surely be easier than what is currently done in the pilot program. However, there are larger goals and the PUC probably wanted to force the utilities to deal more with third parties. It is good that things are moving forward, but it's painful to watch and probably even more painful for the participating entities.

Anyway, to the point of this new initiative - how is a home EVSE going to contribute anything to peak demand management when the vehicles that would be connected to the EVSE are not even present when the peak happens? This makes a lot more sense for workplace charging. However, that could also lead to a some unhappy people because their car may not be fully charged when they want to go home. Anyway, maybe I'm missing the point. After all, this says Green Grid, so maybe it's not about peak demand shaving. For home charging, I think the best you can do is have the car to charge at the slowest rate that doesn't reduce charging efficiency and still be full by the departure time. That doesn't require anything from the EVSE or utility.

emotorwerks said:

srl99 said:

I think my warning/advice to read the other thread is more than fair. I also returned a pilot JB and got a refund.
To tell people EMW took full payment for a product they weren't prepared to deliver, is also fair.
We don't broach unfair until we ask what happened to all those returned JBs? Ever see a refurb JB sold???

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No, this is not fair. eMotorWerks have put a lot of effort into the PEV Pilot, and they were the only entity that kept it going. All other MDMAs have dropped out and the remaining ones, despite their experience and considerable resources, have not been able to place more than six devices in the field. Not enough to collect sufficient data for the PUC to make any future determination regarding EVSE submetering. This speaks to the difficulty of the PEV Pilot. Refurbished JuiceBoxes have been successfully sold. All early pilot participants, including yourself, have been taken care of, and they were offered alternatives to help resolve the situation. I'm sorry that you feel this way, [Moderator's Edit: No personal information.], but your continued sour grapes are really not appropriate.

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I never received the promised free JB. This and other honest comments are on my Nexant/CPUC survey form.

miimura said:

The PEV sub-metering pilot could have been executed in a much more straight forward fashion using only utility-owned equipment. What could be simpler than putting a conventional meter socket box in the place of a 14-50 socket and moving the socket to be after the sub-meter? Simply designating that SmartMeter as a sub-meter in the billing system would surely be easier than what is currently done in the pilot program. However, there are larger goals and the PUC probably wanted to force the utilities to deal more with third parties. It is good that things are moving forward, but it's painful to watch and probably even more painful for the participating entities.

…cut other thought...

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LADWP allows, or allowed, dual-meter adapters. Install a second utility meter for EV use (at the existing meter socket)… connect the EVSE … Done. And billing still works! Gov't didn't need to mandate another system.

miimura said:

Anyway, to the point of this new initiative - how is a home EVSE going to contribute anything to peak demand management when the vehicles that would be connected to the EVSE are not even present when the peak happens? This makes a lot more sense for workplace charging. However, that could also lead to a some unhappy people because their car may not be fully charged when they want to go home. Anyway, maybe I'm missing the point. After all, this says Green Grid, so maybe it's not about peak demand shaving. For home charging, I think the best you can do is have the car to charge at the slowest rate that doesn't reduce charging efficiency and still be full by the departure time. That doesn't require anything from the EVSE or utility.

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Micheal, that's a fair point, and thank you for your interest in PG&E's supply-side pilot. I'm quoting from their kickoff presentation for residential participants, which you might want to peruse.

The seasonal and locational factor makes it difficult to convey to customers when DR is needed. The need for balancing the grid means DR that not only reduces demand, but increases demand. Short term need to integrate renewables in over-generation situation is the biggest need.

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emotorwerks said:

The seasonal and locational factor makes it difficult to convey to customers when DR is needed. The need for balancing the grid means DR that not only reduces demand, but increases demand. Short term need to integrate renewables in over-generation situation is the biggest need.

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I had not thought about the need to increase load overnight to balance the grid. That is clearly the best use case for home EVSE grid interaction. The question in my mind is how you incentivize participation when the overnight rates are already low.

miimura said:

I had not thought about the need to increase load overnight to balance the grid. That is clearly the best use case for home EVSE grid interaction. The question in my mind is how you incentivize participation when the overnight rates are already low.

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Making them ever lower ?

Cities buy energy for 240Volt L2 charges for $0.18/kWh. independent when people are using it
With the pilot of SCE I pay $0.,122 between 9pm and noon plus rental for the sub-meter [which was provided by EMW/OC] making my real EV charging costs a little bit higher than that 12.2 cents.
I can imagine going lower than 10 cent between midnight & 6 am would be a good incentive to do most of the charging round those hours.

I was paying below 6 cents on PG&E E-9A in the Summer with solar. I changed to EV-A because in the winter my bill went through the roof. The lack of tiers on EV-A cut the winter bills way down and only raised the summer a little bit. Now with two EV's I will probably come out ahead except in May, June, and July. PG&E thought the E-9 rates were too low anyway. Maybe this kind of grid interactive charging will give us another way to whittle it down some more. I would look into it more if it was available in the South Bay Area.

miimura said:

I would look into it more if it was available in the South Bay Area.

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Yes, the program might be expanded to other Sub-LAPS, including PGSB, under the new DRAM (Demand Response Auction Mechanism) initiative. The supply-side pilot could be considered a prelude to a more widespread application.

We are at 40 signed and executed applications and have 10 spots left. Additionally, eMotorWerks is now offering a free JuiceNet upgrade to ClipperCreek HCS-40 owners. This upgrade adds networking capabilities and remote control via a smartphone app.