Install new meter for charging from PG&E at home? or no?

[gary2020]

We just got the rav4ev.
PG&E site says 2 options:

E9A rates -uses existing meter
E9B rates -set up separate meter for car for a fee of $250

Do most do E9A?
has anyone done the math to see if it justifies putting in another meter?

also, is there a form to fill out or just call PG&E and talk to them?
i found some interesting links:
http://www.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/pge-e9-rate-schedule-northern-california

http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf

 

[Bassman]

I put in a second drop and meter, but that was 2 years ago and the cheap EV9B rate will be changing to a higher cost per KWHr in 2014. It made sense for me as my house usually gets into Tier 3 and 4 territory ($0.33 to $0.34/KWHr). Using the separate meter kept my roughly 300 to 340 KWHrs for my LEAF to less than $25/ month, using mostly the offpeak rate of $0.066/KWHr. Now with the Rav4 EV, it will probably be $40 to $50 /month, as it has twice the battery capacity and is not as efficient as the LEAF. My commute is about 2,000 miles/month.

 

[miimura]

Glenn,

How much did PG&E charge for the second drop? How far is it from the meter to the pole or transformer? I'm also interested to see what they do with E-9 going forward.

Gary,

PG&E will charge you $250 for the meter, but the bulk of the additional cost will be from your electrician to put in a junction and another meter socket/panel. Also, if capacity of the line back to the pole or transformer is not enough, PG&E will charge you to upgrade that too. According to Waidy, PG&E has some subsidies available for E9B service upgrades. Without the subsidy, most people find that installing the extra meter takes too long to pay back.

If you think you will ever get solar PV, don't get the extra meter. If you do, you will not be able to offset your EV meter with the PV on your house.

 

[Bassman]

They didn't charge anything extra because the weatherhead was righjt next to my original drop so they just looped over and spliced in. I just paid the $250 for the meter placement.

 

[Dsinned]

I've been hearing rumors that PG&E "E9" rate plans will be discontinued, or replaced, later THIS year. There is nothing about this on PG&E's website, as far as I know, but I may have missed it. Anybody hear the same or know anything more about this?

 

[SneakyFast1]

Detailed here: http://www.pge.com/myhome/environment/whatyoucando/electricdrivevehicles/rateoptions/

Update: By late spring of 2013, the E-9 rate will be closed and replaced with a new electric vehicle rate, Schedule EV, which contains these same two options. The difference is that this new rate will not have a “tiered” structure like the current E-9 rate schedule. When Schedule EV becomes available, customers taking service on either option of the E-9 schedule may choose to stay on that rate schedule, or move to the new EV rate schedule. If no choice is made, they will remain on the E-9 rate until at least the end of 2014*, at which point they will transition to the new EV rate. Alternatively, they may also choose another applicable rate schedule if so desired.

And the Schedule EV proposal: http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_3910-E-A.pdf

Douglas

 

[miimura]

As someone who has solar PV, I think Schedule EV looks pretty good. It has a full 8 hours of off peak starting at 11pm at less than 10c/kWh. During the winter I get very little generation during the Part-Peak on E-6, so this would push all my winter generation into Part-Peak or Peak. I don't have A/C, so my summer peak demand should be low.

I have a spreadsheet where I can automatically calculate a bill based on a given rate schedule and my actual smart meter data. Adding EV load to it is easy. When I have some spare time I'll update it to include this proposed rate plan and make a comparison to E-9A. If anyone is interested I can make the XLSX available for download or e-mail to people who make PM requests.

 

[khaliss]

If you have a google account (gmail), use google spreadsheet... instantly share and update! Microsoft Excel (Office) is so 1990s! Check out my Fuel-Efficient Car comparo:

http://goo.gl/wxoVB

 

[snoltor]

I spoke with PG&E two weeks ago. The original plan was to introduce the new schedule EV this spring, but PGE is now planning to role that out by the end of the year. Initially you will be given the option to chose the plan you want, but eventually everybody would be rolled into the new plan.... at least according to the person I spoke with.

I've been hearing rumors that PG&E "E9" rate plans will be discontinued, or replaced, later THIS year. There is nothing about this on PG&E's website, as far as I know, but I may have missed it. Anybody hear the same or know anything more about this?

 

[miimura]

Some other thoughts about the separate metering:
1. If you live in an area that requires a lot of A/C in the summer, you will be better off with a separate meter. Put the house on E-1 rate and the EV meter on E-9 or the upcoming Schedule EV.
2. If you wanted to use the additional meter to get an additional baseline and charge at a lower rate, you should not plan on that any more. You will eventually be kicked off E-9 and Schedule EV has no tiers, so there is no more baseline and the off-peak price will be fixed no matter how much you use.

Reading the Advice 3910-E was entertaining - they filed this with the PUC in September 2011. They gave figures for the total of E-9A and E-9B customers as of mid-2011. There were only 329 whole house E-9A customers and 35 E-9B customers. Granted, in the EV timeline, that was a long time ago - only 7,052 Leaf, Volt, and Smart ED cars were sold in the whole US from 2010 through the end of June 2011. Now, the cumulative US sales of plug-ins from 2010 through March 2013 has reached 89,143. PG&E has said that they will cap E-9 at 30,000 customers or 12/31/2014. I don't think they will reach it by 12/31/2013, by which time it will be closed to new customers anyway.

Khaliss,

I thought about doing a google spreadsheet, but I've never used it so I don't know how easy it will be to migrate this spreadsheet. There are a lot of conditional statements and special functions to extract the month and day from the date in order to sort the smart meter data into TOU bins and additional logic in order to implement the tiered use calculations. Anyway, I'll look into it.

 

[Dsinned]

This thread points out the monetary importance of all the collective squawking from our members here about the Charge Timer malfunction issue!

Gosh darn it, it is critically IMPORTANT to be able to set in advance and "know" exactly when our RAV4 EVs are actually charging! The difference between off-peak and peak "EV" electric rates (in PG&E's territory) is SIGNIFICANT! As much as $0.25/kWh more costly during "peak" hours in the Summer time!.

That may not sound like much, but I'd venture to guess, conservatively speaking, the average RAV4 EV's charging regime will accumulate at least 2000 kWh per year (~40kWh per week)! Some will use at least double or triple that amount of home charging electric power, by doing multiple charges per week. I would certainly rather be paying 10 cents per kWh, than 35 cents!!!

We need our RAV4 EV charge timers to function properly, first time, EVERY TIME, and strictly keep to a preset charging schedule as ACCURATELY as possible!!!

C'mon Toyota, are you listening to YOUR customers???

 

[khaliss]

I thought about doing a google spreadsheet, but I've never used it so I don't know how easy it will be to migrate this spreadsheet. There are a lot of conditional statements and special functions to extract the month and day from the date in order to sort the smart meter data into TOU bins and additional logic in order to implement the tiered use calculations. Anyway, I'll look into it.

There is not much difference between Excel and Google-Spreadsheet. That spreadsheet I linked was originally an excel spreadsheet from some EV site, I basically did an "import" upload to my google drive, and bam, I didn't even have to do anything. There are plenty of youtube videos that show how easy it is to do an import and work in google docs.

 

[srl99]

It seems like there's a shortcut in the E-1 vs E-1 + E-9B analysis. In whichever seasons (winter and/or summer) you are likely to be in Tier 3 w/o the EV, you can approximate the savings as the EV usage * 25c/kWH (up to baseline). [This is 35c/kWH tier 3 E1 - 10c/kWH tier 1 E-9B overnight.] Assume about 400 kWH and you have $100/mo savings for that season.

The real analysis is much more complicated - it would be whole house E-9A vs E-1 or E-1 + E-9B.

The web siter pev4me.com will analyze your last year's usage E-9A vs E-1. This was in beta the last time I checked, but the numbers lined up pretty well against estimates.

The online quick calculator on the PG&E site assumes your usage is spread out evenly across the clock, a poor assumption - so those numbers aren't useful.

You may try calling PG&E and asking them to run (historical) rate analyses for the various plans. I don't know if they have E-9 available in this program yet.

The savings (if any) need to pay for the separate meter install.

Presumably. when EV rate plan takes effect the two meter solution will become E-1 and EV-B.

For a real eye-opener compare PG&E rates against SMUD R-1 (Sacramento), then write to the CPUC and your legislators.

 

[cwerdna]

This thread points out the monetary importance of all the collective squawking from our members here about the Charge Timer malfunction issue!

Gosh darn it, it is critically IMPORTANT to be able to set in advance and "know" exactly when our RAV4 EVs are actually charging! ...

We need our RAV4 EV charge timers to function properly, first time, EVERY TIME, and strictly keep to a preset charging schedule as ACCURATELY as possible!!!

C'mon Toyota, are you listening to YOUR customers???

How many Rav4 EV owners here (and not on this forum) have reported the issue to Toyota at http://www.toyota.com/support/contact.html and had it logged? Without the issue being logged on their side, they don't have quantitative data to show that it's important (or not) to owners.

For a real eye-opener compare PG&E rates against SMUD R-1 (Sacramento), then write to the CPUC and your legislators.

You want an eye opener? Look at the rates at https://www.seattle.gov/light/accounts/rates/ac5_erps24.htm#rsc and http://www.douglaspud.org/Service/2013RatesJanuary12013.aspx. In the latter, you shouldn't have demand chargers unless you exceed a 50 KW draw...

 

[edmc]

The E-9A/B rates are, indeed, set to be replaced by new EV rate plans... but those with existing 9A/B rates will be grandfathered in should they prefer. So there is absolutely nothing to lose by not waiting. For me, who gets into Tier 3/4 easily (meaning I pay a marginal per-kWh rate of $0.33/$0.34), even the current 9A rate plan was a no-brainer.

The reason for the new EV rates, btw, is that the tiered model is actually punitive to those that weren't getting into tiers 3 & 4 before getting their EV and would now like to charge at home.

The hearings on the EV rates were successful and the new rates were adopted recently. Alas, by "adopted", this merely meant that they were rolled into the full rate plan proposal undergoing hearings right now through sometime in June I believe. Hence, when/if the PG&E rate structure for all of its customers is approved (as a whole), we EVers await.

 

[mudpie]

As someone who has solar PV, I think Schedule EV looks pretty good. It has a full 8 hours of off peak starting at 11pm at less than 10c/kWh. During the winter I get very little generation during the Part-Peak on E-6, so this would push all my winter generation into Part-Peak or Peak. I don't have A/C, so my summer peak demand should be low.

I have a spreadsheet where I can automatically calculate a bill based on a given rate schedule and my actual smart meter data. Adding EV load to it is easy. When I have some spare time I'll update it to include this proposed rate plan and make a comparison to E-9A. If anyone is interested I can make the XLSX available for download or e-mail to people who make PM requests.

I most likely have a RAV4 EV in my near future.
Can the RAV4 be plugged in but be set not to charge until off-peak hours (11pm-7am)?
Or must that only be handled using a wall-mounted charger with that feature?

I already have solar PV and a TOU meter, following the PG&E E-7 rate, I think. I'm quite unclear as to whether I should add a second meter to my (future) car charger...

 

[Dsinned]

I most likely have a RAV4 EV in my near future.
Can the RAV4 be plugged in but be set not to charge until off-peak hours (11pm-7am)?
Or must that only be handled using a wall-mounted charger with that feature?

This has been discussed here over and over again . . . no offense, but how could you not already know the answer to this question???

Yes, the RAV4 EV has this feature integrated via the center console's charging management software, but it DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY!

To best of my knowledge EVERY 2012 RAV4 EV (and quite possibly all 2013s) have this design flaw, which has existed from the very first car produced and sold to the public since last September. Furthermore, Toyota is most definitely aware of the problem, but failed to fix it in all this time!

 

[miimura]

As someone who has solar PV, I think Schedule EV looks pretty good. It has a full 8 hours of off peak starting at 11pm at less than 10c/kWh. During the winter I get very little generation during the Part-Peak on E-6, so this would push all my winter generation into Part-Peak or Peak. I don't have A/C, so my summer peak demand should be low.

I have a spreadsheet where I can automatically calculate a bill based on a given rate schedule and my actual smart meter data. Adding EV load to it is easy. When I have some spare time I'll update it to include this proposed rate plan and make a comparison to E-9A. If anyone is interested I can make the XLSX available for download or e-mail to people who make PM requests.

I most likely have a RAV4 EV in my near future.
Can the RAV4 be plugged in but be set not to charge until off-peak hours (11pm-7am)?
Or must that only be handled using a wall-mounted charger with that feature?

I already have solar PV and a TOU meter, following the PG&E E-7 rate, I think. I'm quite unclear as to whether I should add a second meter to my (future) car charger...

IMHO, if you have solar, don't get an EV dedicated meter unless you study your specific situation very carefully. The only way you should get a separate meter is if you have a very small solar system compared to your household usage. E-7 is a very old rate schedule and I haven't looked at the details of how it's different from E-6 and E-9. I will probably work on my PG&E rate calculation spreadsheet this weekend, so you would be able to download your SmartMeter data and calculate your bill for that period under different rate schedules. Alternatively, you can plug in your TOU data (X kWh Peak, Y kWh Part-Peak, Z kWh Off-Peak) and it will also calculate the bill that way. That is useful because if you don't have the EV yet, you can just add the estimated Off-Peak usage to charge your expected miles/month. I will probably post it in the PG&E Rates thread.

 

[srl99]

Strongly advise doing the analysis for your own home/usage. You can call PG&E for a rate analysis and also try the tool at http://www.pev4me.com . Our house would have been a bit under 10% less for the whole year on E-9A last year (vs E-1). Your cost may vary (YCMV). [We are typically at the "most efficient" houses rating except for the air conditioning season, very little EV charging in the historical year.]

The E-9A/B rates are, indeed, set to be replaced by new EV rate plans... but those with existing 9A/B rates will be grandfathered in should they prefer. So there is absolutely nothing to lose by not waiting. For me, who gets into Tier 3/4 easily (meaning I pay a marginal per-kWh rate of $0.33/$0.34), even the current 9A rate plan was a no-brainer.

The reason for the new EV rates, btw, is that the tiered model is actually punitive to those that weren't getting into tiers 3 & 4 before getting their EV and would now like to charge at home.

The hearings on the EV rates were successful and the new rates were adopted recently. Alas, by "adopted", this merely meant that they were rolled into the full rate plan proposal undergoing hearings right now through sometime in June I believe. Hence, when/if the PG&E rate structure for all of its customers is approved (as a whole), we EVers await.

 

[mudpie]

Dsinned: apologies, I was doing 16-hour work/travel days overseas and hadn't read thru all posts in the 4 days since I accidentally 'discovered' the $9300 incentive that put the RAV4 EV within my realm of affordability =)

I'm pretty interested in the RAV4 EV, but it does sound like it has some annoying bugs, and Toyota is going to be pretty uninterested in tech support for a car that sells at a fraction of 1 percent volume compared to just their Camry.

miimura: Unfortunately, I do not have a smartmeter, and probably don't have complete TOU data since I haven't meticulously saved every monthly statement. My PV system is a 5000kwh/year system. My water heater, furnace, stove, oven, and current commuter car are natural gas.
I'm deathly bored of my Civic GX...slow, 4 cubic feet of trunk space due to the big CNG tank, no gadgetry whatsoever -- not even a steering wheel volume control.

srl99: I've been needing to have PG&E do an analysis for awhile, or do some of my own, to re-assess my 7 year old PV system.