An almost-buyer, have a few questions

[mudpie]

Hi,

I was planning to buy a RAV4 EV today and take advantage of the $19,300 in total incentives and rebates, but alas it was not to be. The dealer at the last minute was not able to lock in a 'qualified' RAV4, which apparently means a 2012 that hasn't been 'rolled back' (meaning it was ordered and the financing fell thru and the car is no longer considered new). 2013s are now being shipped.

If the 2013s have half-decent incentives, such as $5000 off and a 1.9% APR 60 month loan, I WILL BUY ONE.

Meanwhile, I'm confused about charging at home. I'm hoping somebody will pardon my ignorance and answer these related questions:
If the car has a 10kw charger on-board, why do I need a $1027 EVSE charging doohickey (or a $239 upgrade to the useless-to-me-who-commutes-56-miles-per-day stock 110V charging cable)?!
Why won't a big fat inexpensive extension cord plugged into my 30-amp dryer socket charge the RAV4?
Why do I need the Toyota-approved Leviton Electric Vehicle Charging Station for $1500 installed (+$1800 cost of additional house wiring & circuitry)?
No disrespect to Toyota, but if I upgrade to a 'real' Tesla one day, will the $1500 Charging station and the $1027 cable work with it, or am I back to square one?

Regards to all of the excellent, green, Tesla/Toyota fans on this forum

 

[miimura]

I just bought one this past weekend after thinking about it for a long time. I don't think the Leviton 40 amp charging station is that big of a deal compared to the cost of the car. I ordered mine from Home Depot for $1,099. How much it will cost you to connect it to your electrical panel is potentially a much bigger issue. I just built a new custom home, so I already put a 50 amp 240 volt outlet on each side wall of the garage. Installing the Leviton charging station in my garage will be pretty trivial.

The charger in the RAV4 is the same as the on-board charger in the Model S, although some have two of them installed for double the charging rate on 240VAC, if you have a 100 amp circuit. The Toyota recommended Leviton 40 amp charger will do just fine to charge a Model S.

If you really want to reduce the budget for charging and you have a 30 amp dryer outlet in the garage, you can buy a Clipper Creek LCS-25. It has been on sale for $595 and will charge at 4.8kW, more than 3X faster than the included 120V charging cable.
http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/-strse-6/Level-2-EVSE,-Level/Detail.bok
You will have to buy and connect the right cord and plug to match to your dryer socket, but those things can be purchased at any Lowes, Home Depot or Orchard Supply.

 

[cwerdna]

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4056 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4898 may help.

I think you can blame why an EVSE is required on the way J1772 was defined. (The L1 120 volt trickle charge cord set is an EVSE, BTW.)

 

[occ]

Hi,

I was planning to buy a RAV4 EV today and take advantage of the $19,300 in total incentives and rebates, but alas it was not to be. The dealer at the last minute was not able to lock in a 'qualified' RAV4, which apparently means a 2012 that hasn't been 'rolled back' (meaning it was ordered and the financing fell thru and the car is no longer considered new). 2013s are now being shipped.

If the 2013s have half-decent incentives, such as $5000 off and a 1.9% APR 60 month loan, I WILL BUY ONE.

Well, if the rav sales keep being anemic, you might still get all that incentives for the 2013 eventually.

Meanwhile, I'm confused about charging at home. I'm hoping somebody will pardon my ignorance and answer these related questions:
If the car has a 10kw charger on-board, why do I need a $1027 EVSE charging doohickey (or a $239 upgrade to the useless-to-me-who-commutes-56-miles-per-day stock 110V charging cable)?!
Why won't a big fat inexpensive extension cord plugged into my 30-amp dryer socket charge the RAV4?
Why do I need the Toyota-approved Leviton Electric Vehicle Charging Station for $1500 installed (+$1800 cost of additional house wiring & circuitry)?

The J1772 is a standard, with all the necessary safety features that is robust enough for public consumption. So the Leviton and all other EVSE are not just extension cords. It has electronics to tell the car how much power it can pull out of the wall. That way, any EV out there can safely plug into any EVSE regardless of how big or small their car's charger is. Could you imagine a rav4ev trying to pull 10kw out of a circuit that's only rated for 3kw circuit that does not have safety breakers?!

No disrespect to Toyota, but if I upgrade to a 'real' Tesla one day, will the $1500 Charging station and the $1027 cable work with it, or am I back to square one?

Regards to all of the excellent, green, Tesla/Toyota fans on this forum

Tesla S ships with an adapter that goes from the J1772 nozzle to the Tesla charge inlet, so yes, it will still work with a Tesla. However, Since the Tesla can charge much faster, the J1772 EVSE you install now will only charge at its maximum rate. If that's enough then no problem, but if you want to charge up your future Tesla faster, you might have to install Tesla's own EVSE in your garage.

 

[Dsinned]

If the 2013s have half-decent incentives, such as $5000 off and a 1.9% APR 60 month loan, I WILL BUY ONE.

This would still be a LOT better than what was available when the 2012 first became available early last Fall, and 1.9%APR was all that TFS offered up until December. Now, there's gonna be some more "sour grapes" from all the new prospective buyers that missed out on the insanely ridiculous and lucrative purchasing "incentives" available over the last several months. And it is my understanding the difference between 2012 and 2013 models is for all intent and purposes . . . NOTHING!

 

[jspearman]

I think your commute might be a bit long to charge from 110. That would be around 17kWh you would be refilling every night. I'm not sure that's possible in 13 or 14 hours. You might be able to charge up completely on the weekend, then keep recharging as much as possible the rest of the week and use public charging I you get desperate.

The Leviton charger isn't absolutely necessary and you can get a used Clipper Creek on eBay for about $500 less.

 

[miimura]

I think your commute might be a bit long to charge from 110. That would be around 17kWh you would be refilling every night. I'm not sure that's possible in 13 or 14 hours. You might be able to charge up completely on the weekend, then keep recharging as much as possible the rest of the week and use public charging I you get desperate.

The Leviton charger isn't absolutely necessary and you can get a used Clipper Creek on eBay for about $500 less.

"the useless-to-me-who-commutes-56-miles-per-day stock 110V charging cable"

I think he knows the 120VAC included EVSE won't be enough for him.

 

[mudpie]

THANKS everyone for your replies so far. It is starting to make sense.

So for maximum flexibility I should get an EVSE that can manage the maximum allowable charging current of the double-charger-optioned Model S (on the off-chance I can afford a Model S one day).

It seems an EVSE may work better for me than a wall-mount because I could take the EVSE with me and, on occasion, be able to charge up at work or at friends' houses that have an accessible dryer outlet.

On a sidenote, I'm so excited to find (from this forum) that I can buy and easily install an INEXPENSIVE 2" hitch. On my PILOT, it was $600 to buy (including the harness and an add-on tranny cooler), and $600 for installation which I skipped and did it myself -- but it took 6 hours though I'm fairly handy. I don't have 6 hours free ever, anymore.

On another sidenote, the salesman just informed that the $9300 promotion continues 'til June 3. The problem is, there are very few qualifying vehicles...none in my desired color that are within easy trading distance.

 

[miimura]

So for maximum flexibility I should get an EVSE that can manage the maximum allowable charging current of the double-charger-optioned Model S (on the off-chance I can afford a Model S one day).
...
On another sidenote, the salesman just informed that the $9300 promotion continues 'til June 3. The problem is, there are very few qualifying vehicles...none in my desired color that are within easy trading distance.

If you're buying a RAV4 EV, just get the Leviton 40amp unit recommended by Toyota. It's fast enough, and the only J1772 unit I know of that is larger is the Clipper Creek CS-100.
http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/ClipperCreekInc/-strse-9/CS-dsh-100%2C-High-Power-Charging/Detail.bok
The Tesla High Power Wall Connector has the proprietary Model S nozzle.
http://shop.teslamotors.com/collections/model-s/products/high-power-wall-connector

If you want Shoreline Blue, I'm sorry. I think I got the last one. http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=337

 

[mudpie]

If you want Shoreline Blue, I'm sorry. I think I got the last one. http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=337[/quote]

Yes, I did, and yes, you did.

But I'm probably okay with the off-white pearl white color...still deciding...I have a brilliant white Civic GX (which I'll be selling if I get the RAV4 EV) that I hate...much too glaring. I think the off-white will be much more acceptable.

So I asked you this in another post already, but here again: what setup would I need to automatically just have the car charge up from 11pm - 7am off-peak rates? I'd much rather not have to remember to go downstairs into the garage and start the charging every night at 11pm....I would definitely forget 30% of the time. Do any EVSEs or wall-mount chargers have this feature, if the car itself doesn't?

 

[shikataganai]

I'd imagine that you could do that through the phone app even if the in-car timer is flaky.

 

[TonyWilliams]

If the car has a 10kw charger on-board, why do I need a $1027 EVSE charging doohickey (or a $239 upgrade to the useless-to-me-who-commutes-56-miles-per-day stock 110V charging cable)?!

If you have a current 30 amp dryer receptacle in your garage, just buy the $595 Clipper Creek LCS-25 (20 amp power draw, require 25 or 30 amp circuit). You'll have to either add a NEMA 10-30 plug on the LCS-25, or hard wire it to the dryer receptacle.

That will provide about 4kW into your battery, or about 12 miles added per mile charging. For your short 56 miles, that's under 5 hours charging overnight.

If you plan on needing the car to be recharged in the middle of the day, I'd recommend using any of the 40 amp units on the market, including the eBay Clipper Creek unit (which is 48 amps, requires 60 amp circuit). Those will add about 25 miles per hour charging but cost significantly more for garage wiring changes.

The Rav4 uses the standard 40 amp Tesla charger onboard, so if you buy a Model S/X, you'll be great with the 40 amp units. If you get twin chargers, you'll need 80 amp continuous service on a 100 amp circuit. Only Clipper Creek and Telsa (their High Power Wall Unit) have 75 or 80 amp units.

 

[khaliss]

the ebay Clipper Creek CS-60s sold out last week... I bought the last one they had on stock. (my 2nd one)

 

[Ziggygreybeard]

Hello Mudpie;

We bought (i.e. leased) our new ’12 (smoke/blue) RAV4EV on 3/28/13 so we are no experts – but we have loved every minute/aspect so far.

But we have experienced the research about in-home charger since day one.
First off, when we rolled off the lot, the RANGE on the car showed about 125 miles. We were impressed. We have never seen that level of ‘range’ sow up, since – even with ‘supercharging’ (i.e. Full Range Charging).
It’s one of the Qs we are saving for our next visit with the Toyota Dealership (City Toyota, of San Francisco).

We drove it around for a while, got home & into our garage (Mission District of S.F.), and plugged in the 110v cable that comes with the car.
The ‘Time to Re-charge’ meter said something over 12 hours (for 110v),
And something like 2 hours for 240v.

That is typical. In short, your 110v cable will never keep up with even minimal daily use of the car. You need a 240v charging station in your garage.

After considerable research, we learned that there are several (qualified)
Recharge Station Kits available, from several sellers. ALL are made by Leviton. There seems to be no competition. We learned that you have to jump thru a lot of hoops even to BUY one direct from Leviton. The raw cost of the appropriate Leviton unit is over a thousand; then you have to deal with them about installation. Figure $2k if you go “All Leviton”.

We didn’t. We did more research and learned that you can buy almost the same 240v charger unit (yes, Leviton) from Home Depot (on-line sales only) for about $700. Another $70. or so for the Mounting kit. (Yes, you need that). The unit arrive in 2 business days via normal shipping. Our electrician installed it using code-approved wiring, breaker, etc, for another $300.
Total cost, about $1,100.
They don’t tell you that when you get the car.
They should. They should have them on-hand, at the parts dept., for a reasonable price, for you to buy as an ‘accessory’ to the car purchase.

In any event, the point is, the main component is the big fat 18’ cable that leads from the wall unit to your car charging port. The cable and the very complex standard (what I call) Charging Nozzle.
You need this. You can’t take the 110v one that comes with the car, and re-wire it to work on 240v. It is a molded ‘nozzel’ and WAY to complex inside (I’m sure). You can’t just re-wire the nozzle with 10ga. Cable and put a dryer plug on the other end. You would get into a ton of warrantee voiding issues, and you won’t be able to dry your clothes.

You gotta go for the in-garage wall mounted Leviton charger.
Here’s an idea that I thought of….too late.
Pay a few bucks more to have your electrician put a TIMER between your
Dedicated 240v breaker, and the Charger. That way, you can plug in your car in the garage when you come home at 6pm, but set the timer to switch on the charger at midnight, when KW hours are cheaper!

All in all though….I say GO FOR IT!
The RAV4 EV is a GREAT car to drive.
It will handle your commute – no problem.
You will have a great smug feeling in traffic
(instead of a smog feeling).
And every time you pass a filling station,
You will be giving it the invisible middle finger!

Ziggy in San Francisco

 

[miimura]

I just bought the Toyota recommended Leviton EVB40-5PT charging station from HomeDepot.com for $1099 + tax and free shipping. They quote 3-5 days for shipping prep and 3-5 days transit, but I got it in exactly two days. One day to ship and one day to go from Sparks, NV to the Bay Area.

I already have an existing 240V 50A circuit and just need to change the receptacle from NEMA 14-50 to NEMA 6-50. The $79.50 price for the mounting kit is ridiculous for a sheet metal plate and receptacle. I got the receptacle by itself at a Home Depot store for $9.99. The installation instructions say the mounting plate is mandatory because you need to be able to remove the plug-in type installation without tools to maintain the UL listing. What a stupid requirement. I'm just going to bolt it to the wall without the plate. Anyway, paid my $105 for the permit at the county and we'll see if the inspector notices that I didn't use the plate. He probably won't care - he just needs to make sure the wire gauge and breaker is correct.

Also, there are many other home charging stations available besides Leviton. I was going to get a GE Wattstation (30 amp), but figured I should just get the Leviton 40 amp for $250 more. There are others by Siemens and Eaton and Clipper Creek that are suitable for the RAV4.

 

[cwerdna]

Ziggy, the "110v cable" you refer to and " 240v charger unit (yes, Leviton)" are all EVSE, NOT chargers. The charging nozzle/handle and the inlet (on the car side) are part of the J1772 standard which has been adopted by virtually all currently sold EVs and PHEVs for L1 and L2 charging. Tesla has their own connectors but has adapters.

The onboard charger is built into the car.

In any event, the point is, the main component is the big fat 18’ cable that leads from the wall unit to your car charging port. The cable and the very complex standard (what I call) Charging Nozzle.
You need this. You can’t take the 110v one that comes with the car, and re-wire it to work on 240v. It is a molded ‘nozzel’ and WAY to complex inside (I’m sure). You can’t just re-wire the nozzle with 10ga. Cable and put a dryer plug on the other end. You would get into a ton of warrantee voiding issues, and you won’t be able to dry your clothes.

The stock L1 120 volt EVSE can be upgraded via http://evseupgrade.com/. Ingineer (a respected member of MyNissanLeaf.com) can upgrade it to charge faster but not as fast as a the 30 amp or 40 amp EVSEs at http://toyota.leviton.com/solutions/rav4ev. Per http://evseupgrade.com/?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=11, the upgrade has "Maximum output: 12 amps when on 240 volts (2.88kW)."

He has many satisfied Leaf customers and I believe some Rav4 EV ones too.

Do NOT attempt to push 200+ volts into an unmodified one via adapters. Doing so will damage it.

 

[mudpie]

A HUGE thanks to all who responded, and to all who have posted good info somewhere on this forum board.

So, it seems that the charging management and remote climate control features of the Entune App don't always work so well on many phones. I have an old Droid II phone on Verizon which is listed as not working (even though Droid I and III do), though I'll probably upgrade to another smartphone anyways in the near future...

Does anybody who has a working Entune app on their phone have comments on controlling these two features and how well it works?

Did somebody have experience using the in-car delay-charging app as well?

I'm convinced to get a permanent charge station at home, and also to upgrade the stock EVSE for those very occasional uses at work or relative's homes when I know I have more travel to do.
However, I might just go cheap and get a 20-amp charging station, have an electrician hook it to the dryer outlet (which is only an old 30 amps) via a timer that switches power to the charging station during off-peak hours...the 7-day timer isn't super cheap.
For maximum convenience of a dedicated circuit, I'd have to first upgrade my main circuit breaker box, which would cost a couple grand, and then run the dedicated circuit, for another $500-1000...so I'm hesitating a bit on that much more expensive option.

By the way, the dealerships are hinting at extending the large incentives for 2013 models...which are exactly the same -- did not change to the new body style that the regular RAV4 changed to.

 

[Dianne]

Guys I have ONE pearl white NEW 2012 that I just trucked down from Santa Maria, and a few silvers that were either mine or gathered locally ... this is what's final for the 2012 and all with a $10,000 factory TFS incentive.
I will be sold out quickly, but if you really are serious and act fast....you can grab that $10K.

There will be some incentive for the 2013 next month but the 2012's incentives will drop dramatically to see up the money to nbe able to put a smaller amount on the 2013's.
Hence, if you want to have the $10K "rebate" using TFS.. act now.
I'm warning you because I was warned from the top brass to get the 2012's gone as the $10K drops after June 3!
Ironically, more of mine are going out of state lately... Colorado, New York, Florida, Texas, Nevada, and this weekend, another to Florida.

Dianne Whitmire
Fleet | Internet Sales Director
Carson Toyota
Sunny So Cal
310-522-2317

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yay! The legendary Dianne is here.

Very interesting (but not so surprising) about Rav4 EVs heading out of state. There is a big gap in the market that's partly filled by the Rav4 EV. If only we had some other BEV that wasn't a SUV, that wasn't as pricey as the Model S but had the range of Rav4 EV and was from a major automaker (no startups like Coda or Fisker).

 

[mikegerard]

Dianne-

I have a friend that may want one...I will see if I can get them to move quickly.

Val should send you a nice xmas gift this year!

Mike