Complete 12 volt electrical failure

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Dsinned

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2012
Messages
1,213
Location
San Jose, CA
Yesterday, while running an errand in my wife's 2012 RAV4 EV, I experienced a COMPLETE electrical failure. Luckily, this occurred as I was existing the freeway, so I was able to pull over to the shoulder before coming to a complete stop. At the time of failure, Just prior to and immediately after stopping, everything was going wrong with the electrical system . . . braking system, power steering, and others while a bunch of warning lights were flashing. There were warning messages on the instrument panel that said, " . . . take car to dealer IMMEDIATELY!!!".

Before the failure, while driving the car normally, I noticed the (12V) battery light was on solid, and stayed on even afterwards while waiting for a tow truck. I measure its terminal voltage to be steadily dropping and as low as +5Vdc by the time there was no power left to even light up the instrument panel. Of course, at such a low battery voltage, all of the car's electronics - presumably all the car's computers - will fail to operate.

I should mention, the night before this happened, we had an unusually cold Winter night here in San Jose, with the outside temperature dropping to nearly below freezing with my Rav4 was parked outside on my driveway.

Also, it should be noted that my experience over the years with 12V "sealed" lead acid batteries is that after a certain point in their lifecycle (usually 5+ years), extremely cold weather may suddenly cause a complete (unrecoverable) discharge. However, a 2012 RAV4 EV only 2+ years old, should NOT need a replacement battery so soon. Nevertheless, I believe that is the case!

I do not understand why the main traction battery's onboard DC to DC charger to the car's 12V battery was unable to keep it charged, nor why a total electric failure occurred, thus rendering the car completely inoperable.

To my horror, the tow truck had to literally "pull" my car onto a flatbed, because my car's front wheels and the rest of the drivetrain were literally "stuck" in gear and would not move. The gear shift was stuck in gear! To make matters worse, the front wheels where slight cocked after pulling over to the shoulder, and with no "power" steering, it was difficult for the tow truck operator to align the front wheels with flatbed ramp.

Imho, there is not nearly enough information in the Owner's Manual about this type of problem situation and more importantly, what "to do" about it if it occurs!

Luckily, the tow truck operator was able to get my car safely onto the flatbed and delivered it to my local dealer located only a few miles away. However, I hope there was no unintended consequences to my VERY EXPENSIVE electric propulsion system only because of a what appears to be a totally dead 12V battery!
 
Dsinned said:
I hope there was no unintended damage to my RAV4's VERY EXPENSIVE electric propulsion drivetrain only because of a totally dead 12V battery!


Wow, that it not a good start of the new year.
Did you and/or the truck driver think about jumping the 12 volt battery to at least get in neutral ?
 
Really sorry to hear about your horrible experience, and look forward to learning what the problem was. I also doubt that it was the previous night's temperature as I've been waking up to temperatures in the low to mid twenties a lot so far this winter. My '13 is parked outside (until I can sell my 1974 BMW 2002tii which uses it now). Haven't had any problems like you had; only Entune refusing to turn on the heat remotely 4 of the last 5 times I tried.

Keep us posted, and thanks for sharing. Total failure is not an option for a car in motion!
 
Just picked it up from my local Toyota dealership. All they did is replace the 12V battery, which is what I thought the problem was after the failure occurred.

Lessons learned:

1. pay close attention to the little red light that looks like a (12V) battery icon. When it stays on for any length of time, it means your battery is not charger (or charging). I have a small cigarette lighter plug-in LED display device that reads out DC voltage to get a more precise indication of the status of my car battery. It normally reads ~14.3V, but when the battery discharges, it continues to readout voltage all the way down till a complete electrical system failure occurs at ~5V. I should have monitored that device more closely, and if I did, could have avoided this nearly catastrophic problem.

2. When stalled on an actual roadway, use the SOS button in the car to call Toyota Customer Care for assistance, and tell the representative its an "emergency". Then, consent to them calling the police to the scene. This is for your added protection should you be (or become) a hazard to other motorist, especially at night. When the police arrive, a tow truck can be dispatched to help almost immediately. I did not do this and was stranded on the side of the road. I had to wait for nearly 5 hours for Toyota CC to send their own (contracted) tow service, but when the police intervene on my behalf, a tow truck will show up almost IMMEDIATELY!

3. Carry a set of jumper cables, and if at all possible keep a spare (emergency use) battery stored in the cargo bay, and the appropriate size wrench(es) to disconnect and reconnect the battery cables to the battery under the hood.

4. Carry a portable, emergency flasher light, and a cell phone. When a complete electrical failure occurs, the SOS system will eventually become inoperable and your emergency hazard flasher warning lights will not function.

5. Drive the car more than only just for very short trips. The battery needs more time to fully recharge than driving only a few miles at a time. This was the recommendation of my local Toyota service dep't.

If something like this ever happens to any of you, especially after dark, you'll be glad you followed these recommendations.
 
Dsinned said:
Lessons learned:

2. When stalled on an actual roadway, use the SOS button in the car to call Toyota Customer Care for assistance,
Provided you have 12 volt to make the call ;-)

[SNIP]
5. Drive the car more than only just for very short trips. The battery needs more time to fully recharge than driving only a few miles at a time. This was the recommendation of my local Toyota service dep't.
That is a real issue with an ICE since starting takes a lot of power from the 12 Volt battery.
I think this advice for an EV is not valid. I think the HV to 12 V is operated either when the contact is on or the car is on the charger.
Do you have any kind of mods on your car that could drain the 12V battery from it's power ?
 
Kohler Controller said:
Dsinned,
Did they check functionality of the DC-DC output? Just as when a 12V battery fails on an ICE, they usually check the alternator.

I agree,
inside the rav4ev is a device with the same functionality as this unit in the Leaf:


http://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-dcdc-converter-decoded-video/

From the text on above link:
This unit takes the 280-400VDC HV battery pack input and converts it to 13-15VDC for the 12V AUX battery charging.
Like Kohler said: this unit has the same function as an alternator on an EV.
Least they could have done is check that one out.

Hope you don't get stuck again.
 
Sorry to hear about your incident. Good that it was easily fixed.

Can someone explain more about how the different batteries and DC - DC work together in our EVs? I would think that the traction battery should be able to assist the 12v battery in an emergency situation. I also thought that the 12v battery only controlled things in the cabin like radio, lights, air and heater.

thanks
 
I thought the same but apparently not. Seems strange it can't do that doesn't it?

As for my HV-DC to LV-DC 12V battery charger, I don't know if they checked it, but I'm going to keep a close eye on the LED voltage readout in my cigarette lighter power socket from now on.
 
My coworker had something similar happen in his Honda Accord. The car just stopped running on the freeway, then as he was pulling over, the car hit a small bump and came back to life. Another 1/4 mile down the road as he had just found an offramp, the car died again. It turns out that the 12V lead acid battery had developed an internal short. The alternator could not overcome that and keep the car running. This is probably what happened to Dsinned's 12V battery.

When this kind of thing happens, it's better to disconnect the bad battery and connect a portable jump box to the battery terminals. That will allow the car to power up and run from the traction battery through the DC/DC converter. Of course, it can be hard to tell if the problem is the DC/DC or the battery itself when it dies on the road. When the DC/DC fails, the normal 12V loads in the car will gradually drain the battery until it gives the same kind of warnings and errors that Dsinned saw. In any case, if the car is locked in park due to no 12V power, jumping it would at least get it into neutral so it can roll onto the flatbed easier.
 
The DC to DC converter works anytime the car is on or charging.

Since the failure in this case it was the 12 V battery, the DC to DC converter can't fix that.

The 12 V battery in modern cars is grossly overworked. The problem is that all the continuous loads (BMS, telematics, etc) that operate while the car is off means that the 12 V battery can't maintain 12.7 V well resting.

The life of the 12 V battery suffers if it can't be maintained a 12.7 V. The problem is not the DC to DC converter.

Yes, short trips are detrimental to the 12 V battery because it is already discharged before the start of the trip from all the "vampire loads" and never fully recharges to 12.7 V while resting.

This problem will happen over and over as long as long as there are conventional lead acid batteries used that can't get fully charged. I recommend a lithium 12 V battery that, while more expensive, is virtually guaranteed to last the life of the vehicle.

Lithium batteries, as we know, are well-suited for not being fully charged and actually will last longer at a 50% charge state than fully charged.
 
Tony, Happy New Year!

I was thinking that very thought . . . a 12V Li-ion battery would be a good investment. Do they make such a car battery compatible with the RAV4 EV? I know they do for motorcycles. I have one of those and (so far) it has been working great while my motorcycle has been in long term storage, although I always keep it trickle charged on a Battery Tender. I've gone through a ton of Pb acid motorcycle batteries over the years during long periods of storage especially during the colder months of the year. Even keeping them on Battery Tender doesn't alway guarantee a typical Pb-acid battery will remain in good condition indefinitely.

Btw, are you sure the 12V battery is being charged at the same time as the traction battery? I suspect your right, so that the vampire loads don't discharge it unnecessarily, but whenever I turn ON the car, I've noticed my 12V battery's terminal voltage seems to increase to ~14.3V immediately after the main contactor energizes. I'll have to check the terminal voltage during my next EVSE activated charge to see if it stays there while the car is turned OFF, or at least at the nominal "at rest" voltage of 12.7V.

Just out of curiosity, "if" I was able to plug-in to an AC outlet (or a portable generator) after my electrical system failure, do you think I could have got the car to restart that way?

How does one "jump start" a RAV4 EV with battery cables attached to another (ICE) car, or is this not an option???
 
Valence Technology (and others) make 12V batteries using lithium iron phosphate technology.
The U1-12RT might be considered. 12.8V nominal, 40Ah, a little over 14lbs. Built in protection from over current, over/under voltage, and over temperature.
5 year warranty (2 year full, last 3 years pro-rated)
A group buy of a couple would at least get you out of paying List Price.
See the full product line and specifications at https://www.valence.com/products/ (click on the table in the bottom left corner).

A123 used to make a 60Ah version, but I don't know who sells them now or if they even sell them directly to the public.
http://www.a123systems.com/lithium-starter-battery.htm
It's probably overkill for this application and I have no idea what it costs.

Full disclosure: I work for Valence Technology, but do not get any type of commission should anyone purchase an U1-12RT. Just providing an option once you cross 36k miles and the warranty is over.
 
Dsinned said:
Tony, Happy New Year!

Just out of curiosity, "if" I was able to plug-in to an AC outlet (or a portable generator) after my electrical system failure, do you think I could have got the car to restart that way?

How does one "jump start" a RAV4 EV with battery cables attached to another (ICE) car, or is this not an option???

Happy New Year!

It's hard to say if you could have gotten the 12 V battery to work with a charger or generator. If the battery was shorted it probably would not work.

To jumpstart the RAV4, you would connect jumper cables just like any other car. If you are jump starting another gasoline powered car to start it, I recommend having your RAV4 on in READY mode so that the DC to DC converter can power the 12 V battery.
 
Kohler Controller said:
Valence Technology (and others) make 12V batteries using lithium iron phosphate technology.
The U1-12RT might be considered. 12.8V nominal, 40Ah, a little over 14lbs. Built in protection from over current, over/under voltage, and over temperature.

I couldn't find a price on this battery.
 
Saw pricing from different vendors from $699 to $860. Not sure how current the pricing is. Got to hate that green casing color but if it works, I can live with that. The price on the other hand. You could have a few lead acids for that price point.
 
That's ridiculously expensive. I can buy a 11000mA-hr battery-charger pack for my phone for about $100 (retail). So, a 40A-hr Li-ion car battery should cost no more than $400 tops!
 
I had a similar failure yesterday except I could not start my car. Lights inside the cabin were dim. Remote access to the doors did not work. Car would not start or recognize remote key fob. The range display on the dash was dim and flickering. Opened the hood and heard a slight clicking that almost sounded like water dripping.

I figured it was my 12V battery since I've experienced a full traction battery failure event and this was not it.

I had a coworker jump start my car and immediately the RavEV was back up and functioning as usual. Lights on, radio on, headlights on, fan on, etc... I immediately drove it to Carson Toyota to be checked out.

I got a call from them this morning that my vehicle was ready for pickup. The mechanics found no problems and say the battery was as strong as they've seen.

Having been through numerous issues with this car (see below), I am very concerned that absolutely nothing wrong was found.

To complicate matters, I'm about 100 miles from hitting 36K, so my included warranty will be expiring VERY soon. I have not purchased an extended warranty but now am pondering it once again. However, I'm still not clear the warranty will even cover anything the drivetrain warranty will cover since all the language in the warranties refers to ICEs and Hybrids.

I emailed Dianne Whitmire but have not heard back from her yet. Have looked at the thread about warranties here: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1124&start=20 but see no confirmation regarding if the warranty will be of any use.

Some vehicle history:
-Purchased March of 2013.
-I have had a full traction battery replacement (approximately 1 year ago).
-I have been driving my car pretty much every day and have not gone for more than a week without driving it.
-The majority of my driving is a 60 mile roundtrip commute to and from work M-F.
 
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