Is anyone using a timer with their CS-60 EVSE?

[PearlRav]

I'm getting a Clipper Creek CS-60 installed next week and the manual states there are load management inputs to connect a timer.
I have also read that people had issues when they connected timers. Has anyone gotten this to work successfully with the CS-60 or similar Clipper Creek EVSE?

 

[pchilds]

I'm getting a Clipper Creek CS-60 installed next week and the manual states there are load management inputs to connect a timer.
I have also read that people had issues when they connected timers. Has anyone gotten this to work successfully with the CS-60 or similar Clipper Creek EVSE?

Today I retested the CS-60, with both the on/off pin grounded and disconnecting the pilot. In both cases, after the RAV4 goes to sleep (sometime between 10 minutes and an hour) the RAV4 doesn't charge.

If ground the on/off pin, plug the J1772 into the RAV4, if you disconnect the on/off pin from ground, within 10 minutes, the RAV4 will start charging, if you wait for 1 hour the RAV4 doesn't start charging.

Same thing happens if you disconnect the pilot wire, plug the J1772 into the RAV4, if you reconnect within 10 minutes the RAV4 starts charging, if you wait for 1 hour the RAV4 doesn't start charging.

 

[miimura]

Sounds like you have to fake the car into thinking you have a complete plug insertion. However, it looks like the Proximity pin is usually handled completely inside the handle in order to reduce the conductors in the cable. My Leviton uses a 4 conductor cable - L1, L2, GND, Pilot. The Proximity is implemented with resistors to ground and a switch actuated by the handle release button, which can all be inside the handle. So, there is a good chance that you cannot make the RAV work with Clipper Creek and an external timer. Well, unless you consider RavCharge to be an external timer... :lol:

 

[PearlRav]

Sounds like you have to fake the car into thinking you have a complete plug insertion. However, it looks like the Proximity pin is usually handled completely inside the handle in order to reduce the conductors in the cable. My Leviton uses a 4 conductor cable - L1, L2, GND, Pilot. The Proximity is implemented with resistors to ground and a switch actuated by the handle release button, which can all be inside the handle. So, there is a good chance that you cannot make the RAV work with Clipper Creek and an external timer. Well, unless you consider RavCharge to be an external timer... :lol:

miimura are you saying that it works with the Leviton but does not with the CC because the Leviton switches the proximity as part of the timed charge but the CC does not ? Perhaps this should be brought to CC's attention?

 

[miimura]

Sounds like you have to fake the car into thinking you have a complete plug insertion. However, it looks like the Proximity pin is usually handled completely inside the handle in order to reduce the conductors in the cable. My Leviton uses a 4 conductor cable - L1, L2, GND, Pilot. The Proximity is implemented with resistors to ground and a switch actuated by the handle release button, which can all be inside the handle. So, there is a good chance that you cannot make the RAV work with Clipper Creek and an external timer. Well, unless you consider RavCharge to be an external timer... :lol:

miimura are you saying that it works with the Leviton but does not with the CC because the Leviton switches the proximity as part of the timed charge but the CC does not ? Perhaps this should be brought to CC's attention?

Not at all. I'm only saying that since what you've tried didn't work, the car must need it to be more like a fresh cable insertion in order for it to wake up and immediately charge. The part that you're not affecting is the Proximity signal and with the Leviton I know it's not possible from inside the case. I don't know the particulars of the cable on the Clipper Creek, so I can't comment specifically on that.

I subscribe to RavCharge, but I don't use the daily timers. The in-vehicle timer has been working for me without issue since October. I would guess that if you have up to date firmware in your car, that the vehicle timer would work consistently with the CS-60 and completely within your off-peak electric rate window.

 

[fooljoe]

I subscribe to RavCharge, but I don't use the daily timers. The in-vehicle timer has been working for me without issue since October.

There's really no reason not to leave your RavCharge timer on even if you intend for the car's timer to go off first. Just set the RavCharge timer a little later and you'll have that extra piece of mind that your car will get charged even if the car's timer does decide to skip a charge out of the blue. If the car's already charging when the RavCharge timer goes off then it won't do anything except update your charge level in Entune, which might actually be useful down to road to log your charging rate and do things like estimate battery degradation.

I would guess that if you have up to date firmware in your car, that the vehicle timer would work consistently with the CS-60 and completely within your off-peak electric rate window.

The car's timer might be getting completely within your off-peak (or super-off-peak, as the case may be) window, but getting this to work is heavily dependent upon your individual circumstances. If you almost always start charging from the same SOC, for example, it'd be pretty easy to set your departure timer such that your charge will always fall within the window. But if sometimes you have a deep discharge and sometimes shallow, or if your window is short (here in SCE territory it's only 6 hours), and/or you've got a <40 amp EVSE, it's basically impossible to keep your charges in the window with the on-board timer alone.

This is because the car's timer consistently calculates time-to-charge at about 170% of what it really is on a 240v supply. If your charge will really take 5 hours, the car thinks it will take 8.5 hours, then it adds 20 minutes to that, so if you have a 12-6 window and set a 6am departure, the car will start charging at 9:10pm. You could compensate for that by setting a 9am departure time, but then suppose the next day you only go down to 80% SOC and your charge will only take 1 hour. The car would then start charging at 7am, so you've completely missed your window on the other end.

The only way around this conundrum is to either jury-rig an external timer or set the car's timer late to account for those deep discharges and set RavCharge early for the shallow charges.

 

[fooljoe]

Sorry to go off on a bit of a tangent there! By the way, I do have a CS-60, and I pondered the idea of using those timer connections, but as you might've noticed I opted for the software approach instead.

Not to imply you can't get it to work with the CS-60 or other EVSE, but my impression was that these devices aren't really designed for frequent power cycling, and different EVs seem to react differently to an already-connected plug getting power cycled. Plus I didn't like the idea of having to go outside and override a physical timer if I wanted to make an out-of-the-ordinary charge or do a pre-climate using wall-power, etc.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Has anybody tried switching the proximity signal on a timer between 150 ohms (connected) and open (disconnected)?

 

[davewill]

I have to do surgery on my Blink this weekend. Since the timer on it is working perfectly, while I've got it open I'll do some measuring and tell you how it works.

 

[fooljoe]

Has anybody tried switching the proximity signal on a timer between 150 ohms (connected) and open (disconnected)?

Wouldn't you have to do that from inside the handle? If you have a J1772 cable that passes through the proximity signal, perhaps you could implement a timer that produces the "button pressed" signal and get it to work that way. Unfortunately, I know that the cables used in those refurbished CS-60s don't have a conductor to pass through the proximity (just hot-hot-ground-pilot.)

 

[pchilds]

Has anybody tried switching the proximity signal on a timer between 150 ohms (connected) and open (disconnected)?

You could put the Intermatic timer in the RAV4, have it open the proximity wire, it has a button to override the timer settings. The newer ones use a lithium battery, they don't require any external power.

 

[Stan]

Below is a link to the timer/relay that I bought from Amazon and use with my CS/60. The timer costs < $15 is powered from 240vac, and has a "dry" relay contact output which means it contains a relay with both sides accessible by connections (and neither side tied to AC). The fact that the timer is powered by 240vac is convenient as it can be powered by the same AC circuit as the EVSE and doesn't require a neutral. Put small inline fuses in both power wires to the timer, of course.

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Digital-Programmable-Electronic-220-240V/dp/B008X1FWEC

I noticed the problem when the timer relay is used with the CS60 on/off wire: the RAV4 doesn't wake up and start charging when the relay opens, if the RAV4 is fully asleep after an hour. The only way I've found to wake the RAV4 is to remove and reconnect the J1772 connector, temporarily increasing the resistance that the RAV4 sees on the proximity wire.

So as a compromise solution I connected the timer instead to the CS60 high/low input. When the timer relay output grounds the CS60 high/low wire, the CS60 signals a 10% duty cycle on the control/pilot wire so that the RAV4 only draws 6A. When the timer opens the relay, the CS60 signals 80% duty cycle on the control/pilot allowing the RAV4 to draw at its full rate.

So it is a compromise. Instead of not charging at all during the day, the RAV4 charges at 6A, but stays awake. Then at night the RAV4 charges at its maximum rate of 40A.

 

[PearlRav]

Below is a link to the timer/relay that I bought from Amazon and use with my CS/60. The timer costs < $15 is powered from 240vac, and has a "dry" relay contact output which means it contains a relay with both sides accessible by connections (and neither side tied to AC). The fact that the timer is powered by 240vac is convenient as it can be powered by the same AC circuit as the EVSE and doesn't require a neutral. Put small inline fuses in both power wires to the timer, of course.

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Digital-Programmable-Electronic-220-240V/dp/B008X1FWEC

I noticed the problem when the timer relay is used with the CS60 on/off wire: the RAV4 doesn't wake up and start charging when the relay opens, if the RAV4 is fully asleep after an hour. The only way I've found to wake the RAV4 is to remove and reconnect the J1772 connector, temporarily increasing the resistance that the RAV4 sees on the proximity wire.

So as a compromise solution I connected the timer instead to the CS60 high/low input. When the timer relay output grounds the CS60 high/low wire, the CS60 signals a 10% duty cycle on the control/pilot wire so that the RAV4 only draws 6A. When the timer opens the relay, the CS60 signals 80% duty cycle on the control/pilot allowing the RAV4 to draw at its full rate.

So it is a compromise. Instead of not charging at all during the day, the RAV4 charges at 6A, but stays awake. Then at night the RAV4 charges at its maximum rate of 40A.

I thought the high/low connection would only allow the RAV4 to do climate pre-conditioning, not charge the drive-train battery? I thought others had mentioned that delayed charge also did not work with the RAV4 with timer connected to high/low. Does it it perhaps depend on how the J1772 wire is connected to the CS-60? Eg proximity being wired or not?

 

[Stan]

Below is a link to the timer/relay that I bought from Amazon and use with my CS/60. The timer costs < $15 is powered from 240vac, and has a "dry" relay contact output which means it contains a relay with both sides accessible by connections (and neither side tied to AC). The fact that the timer is powered by 240vac is convenient as it can be powered by the same AC circuit as the EVSE and doesn't require a neutral. Put small inline fuses in both power wires to the timer, of course.

http://www.amazon.com/Amico-Digital-Programmable-Electronic-220-240V/dp/B008X1FWEC

I noticed the problem when the timer relay is used with the CS60 on/off wire: the RAV4 doesn't wake up and start charging when the relay opens, if the RAV4 is fully asleep after an hour. The only way I've found to wake the RAV4 is to remove and reconnect the J1772 connector, temporarily increasing the resistance that the RAV4 sees on the proximity wire.

So as a compromise solution I connected the timer instead to the CS60 high/low input. When the timer relay output grounds the CS60 high/low wire, the CS60 signals a 10% duty cycle on the control/pilot wire so that the RAV4 only draws 6A. When the timer opens the relay, the CS60 signals 80% duty cycle on the control/pilot allowing the RAV4 to draw at its full rate.

So it is a compromise. Instead of not charging at all during the day, the RAV4 charges at 6A, but stays awake. Then at night the RAV4 charges at its maximum rate of 40A.

I thought the high/low connection would only allow the RAV4 to do climate pre-conditioning, not charge the drive-train battery? I thought others had mentioned that delayed charge also did not work with the RAV4 with timer connected to high/low. Does it it perhaps depend on how the J1772 wire is connected to the CS-60? Eg proximity being wired or not?

There is no unusual communications between the CS60 and the RAV4, just the duty cycle signaled on the control/pilot wire according to the J1772 standard. When the high/low control signal on the CS60 is pulled to ground (by a timer relay) the CS60 sends 10% duty cycle on the control/pilot wire. Different cars may do different things in order to stay below the permitted 6A that is indicated by the 10% duty cycle, but the RAV4 charges slowly at 6A. So delayed charge works in a limited fashion with the RAV4 via a CS60 with the high/low signal controlled by a timer relay. The compromise is that instead of entirely delaying charging during the day, the daytime charging is just reduced to 6 amps.

 

[fooljoe]

The compromise is that instead of entirely delaying charging during the day, the daytime charging is just reduced to 6 amps.

That seems like a pretty terrible compromise. Charging at 6a is still pulling a constant 1.44kw - not to mention that your charger probably operates much less efficiently at that low rate. If you plug in at 6pm every day and your off peak period starts at 11pm then that's 7.2kwh/day, or 216kwh/month you're charging on peak.

Let's say the difference between on-peak and off-peak rates is 25c - then you're paying $54/month for this "compromise." Why not just sign up for RavCharge at $3.25/month?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The compromise is that instead of entirely delaying charging during the day, the daytime charging is just reduced to 6 amps.

That seems like a pretty terrible compromise. Charging at 6a is still pulling a constant 1.44kw - not to mention that your charger probably operates much less efficiently at that low rate. If you plug in at 6pm every day and your off peak period starts at 11pm then that's 7.2kwh/day, or 216kwh/month you're charging on peak.

Let's say the difference between on-peak and off-peak rates is 25c - then you're paying $54/month for this "compromise." Why not just sign up for RavCharge at $3.25/month?

The other solution is to use a J1772 cable that has a proximity wire and cycle the proximity with a timer to wake up and charge the Rav4 EV.

Our 40 amp capable J1772 cable assembly has the required proximity wire, plus a "no extra cost" extra wire for your imagination to run wild.

 

[miimura]

The compromise is that instead of entirely delaying charging during the day, the daytime charging is just reduced to 6 amps.

That seems like a pretty terrible compromise. Charging at 6a is still pulling a constant 1.44kw - not to mention that your charger probably operates much less efficiently at that low rate. If you plug in at 6pm every day and your off peak period starts at 11pm then that's 7.2kwh/day, or 216kwh/month you're charging on peak.

Let's say the difference between on-peak and off-peak rates is 25c - then you're paying $54/month for this "compromise." Why not just sign up for RavCharge at $3.25/month?

The other solution is to use a J1772 cable that has a proximity wire and cycle the proximity with a timer to wake up and charge the Rav4 EV.

Our 40 amp capable J1772 cable assembly has the required proximity wire, plus a "no extra cost" extra wire for your imagination to run wild.

Don't you have to have the handle button switch signal go back upstream to the EVSE box too? So, I think it's not really "extra", it's just enough to work.

BTW, that's a nice cable. What's the overall OD of the jacket?

 

[TonyWilliams]

Don't you have to have the handle button switch signal go back upstream to the EVSE box too? So, I think it's not really "extra", it's just enough to work.

BTW, that's a nice cable. What's the overall OD of the jacket?

It was spec'd at 0.55 inch. Super flexible and light compared to anything else out there.

I can supply the J1772 plug / cable assembly with the proximity wire "activated". Then, the required 150 ohm resistor would be located wherever you want to put the timer (presumably in the EVSE "box"). The 330 ohm resistor would remain in the J1772 handle / plug.

Here is the recommended wiring:

Two black - Hot / L1
Two red - Hot2 / L2 / Neutral
Green - Ground / Earth
Purple - pilot signal
Blue - proximity pin to EVSE box / timer with switched from open or 150 ohms to ground
Orange - from EVSE box / timer to J1772 to the 330 ohm switched disconnect button in J1772 handle / plug

Optional: additional 330 ohm resistor in the EVSE box with a mechanical switch to stop an active charge, just like the button on the J1772 handle / plug.

The cable is $5 per foot, the J1772 plug is $129 for you to build. Or, we can build it to your spec for a service fee.

http://www.QuickChargePower.com

[email protected]

 

[miimura]

Don't you have to have the handle button switch signal go back upstream to the EVSE box too? So, I think it's not really "extra", it's just enough to work.

BTW, that's a nice cable. What's the overall OD of the jacket?

It was spec'd at 0.55 inch. Super flexible and light compared to anything else out there.

Very nice. I just got around to measuring the cable on my Leviton EVB40. It's just over 0.90" OD on the jacket. It is marked "CAROLGRENE ULTRA FLEX(R) ELECTRIC VEHICLE CABLE -- 3C 8 AWG + 1C 18 AWG E333326-8 (UL) EVE 105C DRY 60C WET 600V FT2 - ROHS - MADE IN USA 11/12"

The only thicker heavier cable I've seen is on the Tesla branded ClipperCreek 70A units, which I'm sure is the same as the CS-100 cable.

 

[Bassman]

I use a CS-60 with my Rav. I noticed that if you reset the timer schedule for the next day when you park the car, it never fails to charge, at least for me. If the charge is very low, you'll see that when the car is turned off, the charge time for 240 volt is empty. Just hit charge immediately and charge for a few minutes, then unplug and replug in, turn on the car and then turn it off and the time of 240 volt start should show. this has worked for me for the past 10 months.