Longer Range Battery / Extra battery

[TonyWilliams]

Sounds very cool... but please don't forget about us remaining JdeMO installs!
It's been a long wait... and would've been useful yesterday.

The development work of JdeMO for the RAV4 EV is done, and we've already moved on to JdeMO R&D for the Tesla Roadster.

My brother, Bob, runs the production side of our company, and is actively building JdeMOs. We have installed almost 30 units, and our team will continue installing primarily on the west coast in the order that deposits were made.

They next major installation "center" will be in San Francisco area this month.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yay! I was hoping that this would come soon and that it's being done by my San Diego friend is a real treat! (Despite my preference for open source projects in the EV community). Developing a BMS as well as heating and cooling are musts that others who have added batteries to the Rav4 haven't done. Kudos for approaching it the right way!

Sure, we can do Open Source. Ill get another flying job to pay my bills, and work a few hours each week (in my spare time) for a zero profit enterprise.

:mrgreen:

 

[TonyWilliams]

It looks like you have a ready made customer base for the battery upgrade. I would guess that everyone that has purchased a JdeMO will want one.

What about the tires? Will the stock rear tires support the additional load or will we have to get tires with a higher load rating. Will this involve changing the rims?

How much will the carrying capacity of the car be reduced? (I rarely carry more than four adults, but that can be 1000 pounds for some people :twisted: )

These batteries will likely weigh about 550 pounds. The stock tires and rims are perfectly adequate. We will NOT exceed any load limits or gross vehicle weights. The "payload" (what you put in the car) will be reduced by 550 pounds. That might mean not carrying football players in every seat with lead plates in the back.

It may require a slightly heavier spring, or at the minimum, a slight adjustment to the rear height.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I would love the extra battery
The fast charge is wonderful great to meet tony

Glad you like it. It was a pleasure to meet you.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Yes. Count me in. With a J-Pack (??Guessing at product name here) we'll have to consider changing the name of our cars to the Jav4 EV.

I think I'm going to approach a buddy of mine to do the development on this one, and our company will handle management of the program and sales.

I like J-Pack.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In a nutshell, two packs are proposed:

$12,000 rough estimate - 18kWh / 15kWh usable
$21,000 rough estimate - 36kWh / 30kWh usable

One 18kWh module will fit entirely in the third row footwell (the footwell must be cut out). The floor of the trunk would remain flat.

The second module would fit directly on top of the first module, raising the trunk floor by approximately 9".

All heaters / air conditioning compressors can fit in the rear corners.

Going forward to the front on the vehicle would be:

1) two DC cables tied to the main traction battery
2) isolation relay to separate the two packs
3) air conditioning high pressure lines to the additional radiator in the front
4) 12 volt power for the battery heater
5) 12 volt power for BMS

 

[jimbo69ny]

I would be extremely against losing any interior space for batteries. I need the interior space for business and I wouldnt want to lose any. I could possibly give up the footwell area but thats where I keep all of my adapters and plugs.

Id rather lose ground clearance than interior space.

 

[Michael Bornstein]

A couple of problems come to mind.

By 2017 there will be a few 200 mi BEV's available new for less than $40K. Given the resale value of the RAV, adding a $21K addition would put it in the league of a new car with a new car warranty and possibly new car rebates. As you have said before, the RAV4 EV is the most problematic of all of Toyota's offerings. A $10K addition would be reasonable (I am talking about what is reasonable to add to a used car, not what is reasonable for you to charge), but a $21K addition to a 3-5 year old used car is questionable.

If you raise the rear deck by 9", the cargo space wont be flat when the seats are flattened. I occasionally use the cargo space to carry large items that make use of the flat space.

What 3rd row footwell? Is there a part of the car that I haven't fully investigated?

 

[Incredulocious]

What 3rd row footwell? Is there a part of the car that I haven't fully investigated?

Under the cargo area... loads of space. I use it all the time and would not want to give it up. It's one of my favorite features of the RAV4, both ICE and EV.

And yeah, I agree with the notion of not wanting to give up interior space for more battery. Cool project, but not for me. If we could ever upgrade the existing battery pack, that would be fantastic but I fully expect to move to some new 300+ mile EV before that will happen.

 

[swogee]

The cost plus the loss of space make the battery pack addition something I will have to pass on. There's the added disadvantage of hauling around an extra 250 to 500 lbs of weight that will change the vehicle dynamics. Finally, the idea of heavily modifying the sheet metal i.e. "the footwell must be cut out" to accommodate any upgrade doesn't appeal to me.

If only there were some way to upgrade the main battery pack to enable a 200 mile range. Again I think the chances will be slim to none that it will happen but maybe in the future someone will start a business that takes Tesla battery packs and rebuilds and or upgrades them if there are enough out there.

 

[davewill]

I'm not sure why people are so gung-ho about upgrading the existing pack. They would have to tear it completely apart and replace all of the cells individually, then put it back together. That's a lot of new connections to go wrong. Plus the fun of either modifying the BMS or replacing it. I don't need the extra range, but I would go for the added on pack if I did.

 

[miimura]

It looks like you have a ready made customer base for the battery upgrade. I would guess that everyone that has purchased a JdeMO will want one.

I cannot imagine wanting to buy additional battery for the RAV4 EV. I am looking forward the Jdemo installation, but that is all I need to make this car do everything I need. I don't need to tie up a bunch more money and haul around even more weight to save a couple charging stops per year. That money would be much better used to buy or lease another EV when the e-Golf lease is up in 2018.

 

[n3ckf]

I'm uncertain about the extended range battery. I'd definately only get the smaller one (the fact that the battery doesnt take interior space is one of the best features of the Rav4EV). However I'll have to see how often i'd need it once i get the JDEMO installed. I'm guessing by the time it'd really be available, there'll be enough Chademo charging locations that I wouldnt actually need the extra range.

The one trip i do frequently would benefit from the smaller add-on pack (i'm only 20-ish miles short of range to do the whole thing now), but there's also chademo charging available along that path so i'm really only saving myself 15-18 minutes of charging (I expect)

 

[JasonA]

I don't see the added benefit of a bigger battery with a CHAdeMO vehicle unless you want to be stuck in very limited areas in the USA or just have to the ability to drive 80+ mph all day long with out issues.

If I want to drive up Colorado to see family, or Utah (near the Idaho boarder) that bigger battery isn't going to help me because there's no L3 on those long stretches. Tons of L2 sure... but that sure as hell isn't going to happen :roll: 16+ hr chrg.

This is why Tesla is winning with the SC network.

If there were CHAdeMO's all over the USA... then I'd be all over this..

 

[dipper]

How about a trailer hitch and Rav4EV connectivity mode?

The hitch could load up with 4 packs of 70kwh of battery. Tony could potentially sell/rent the trailer as customer needs. Maybe Tony can design the connectivity for other cars, then these trailers can be sold/rent to larger customer based?

Just an idea.

 

[TonyWilliams]

How about a trailer hitch and Rav4EV connectivity mode?

The hitch could load up with 4 packs of 70kwh of battery. Tony could potentially sell/rent the trailer as customer needs. Maybe Tony can design the connectivity for other cars, then these trailers can be sold/rent to larger customer based?

Just an idea.

The problems with a rental trailer are many:

1) the trailer is never where somebody needs it
2) it really expensive, therefore rent would be expensive, or else folks will "Just-Drive-The-Prius(TM)"
3) where do you park / store the trailer?
4) most people aren't comfortable pulling trailers (or backing up)

 

[GASKIKR]

Is it possible that Tesla or a 3rd party battery manufacturer might venture into producing traction batteries as replacements or upgrades for the Rav4 EV and even perhaps the Mercedes B class? As the Rav4 EV ages it will have some very distinct advantages such as easy to find replacement parts for non-drivetrain components and lots of versatility for daily use. I'm sure that at least half of current Rav4 EV owners would be open to the idea of replacing their degraded pack in the next 3 to 4 years with a new larger capacity pack that would ensure at least another 6-8 years of service with better range and slower degradation due to less required charge cycles. The question is, how soon would it be a good business decision for someone to start making packs for older EV's?

 

[fromport]

Is it possible that Tesla or a 3rd party battery manufacturer might venture into producing traction batteries as replacements or upgrades for the Rav4 EV and even perhaps the Mercedes B class? As the Rav4 EV ages it will have some very distinct advantages such as easy to find replacement parts for non-drivetrain components and lots of versatility for daily use. I'm sure that at least half of current Rav4 EV owners would be open to the idea of replacing their degraded pack in the next 3 to 4 years with a new larger capacity pack that would ensure at least another 6-8 years of service with better range and slower degradation due to less required charge cycles. The question is, how soon would it be a good business decision for someone to start making packs for older EV's?

I don't think Tesla has any interest whatsoever to support things like this apart from warranty
The fact that recently someone drove 96k miles with a rav (extended charge twice a day) and the battery pack only lost 10% of it's capacity, I don't think a lot of rav4ev's will want to upgrade their pack for that reason (in the next 3 to 4 years).
If you would be able to fit model S 18650 batteries (3100mAh Panasonic 18650 cells) instead of the current cells (2900mAh) would increase the capacity 7% (i think with a little bit more weight though)
If I remember correctly, panasonic already has 3400mAh cells, that would be 17% increase

Tony is working on filling up some space in the rear with extra batteries.
Keep looking in this theater ;-)

 

[Tadol]

I'm figuring that in 2-3 years, we'll have more options in electric vehicles - hopefully even an electric pickup. So I will happily drive my Rav until the warranty runs out and the cost of repair/replacement parts are outrageously unrealistic (although the development of a used part aftermarket and maybe even upgraded parts may occur - fingers crossed).

But someday, the viability of the machine as a car will be too greatly reduced - yet even with lower capacity, the battery pack should still have a good deal of use. I would like to believe that someone will figure out a way to use it as a higher end storage system, much like the Tesla wall-pack. I can imagine my old, well used Rav, being driven out to a little cabin in the country, put up on blocks, and plugged into a solar array and a small distribution panel, and acting as the electrical heart of an off-grid getaway. A cell antenna, a few LED lights, a small 'fridge to keep my IPAs cold - I can hope that it'd all last as long as I will -

;-)

 

[cwerdna]

Is it possible that Tesla or a 3rd party battery manufacturer might venture into producing traction batteries as replacements or upgrades for the Rav4 EV and even perhaps the Mercedes B class?
...
The question is, how soon would it be a good business decision for someone to start making packs for older EV's?

For the Rav4 EV, probably never. The quantities (max 2600 vehicles) are too small for it be worth the engineering effort and cost.

I'm not sure we'd ever see them for the most popular EV in the world, the Leaf, partly because their resale value is so poor. It's not worth it to pay $5500 + labor (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168) to replace the pack in a Leaf as I didn't feel an '11 w/a pack replaced for free was worth $8,990 on the used market: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=435921#p435921.

For examples, how many companies are making replacement HV packs for Honda hybrids and that you would trust? There was one (don't recall the name, I had their business card and info) that went under years ago.

If https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_Hybrid#Production is correct, almost 191K Civic Hybrids were sold in North America from inception to Jan 09.