Out of State service

[mkjayakumar]

I called Toyota Customer Service at 1 (800) 331-4331, and a friendly lady emphatically told me that all Dallas Toyota dealers have the equipment and knowledge to service all Toyota electric vehicles. She recommended Toyota of Plano, based on my zipcode. And sure enough, I called and spoke to Service manager at Toyota of Plano and he sees no problem in servicing any Toyota vehicle. I kept repeating, "Do you service Rav4 Electric Vehicle" with a clear emphasis on 'Electric Vehicle', and he wouldn't even let me finish my sentence and would answer, "we service all Toyota vehicles". I asked three times, and he replied back every time with even more emphasis each time.

This is getting beyond hilarious..

 

[user 504]

Since you haven't purchased/leased yet, I hope you took the opportunity to record those phone calls. In Texas, by the way, only one party of a telephone conversation has to be aware that a call is being recorded.

 

[Kohler Controller]

My Austin dealer just called me to say that the last two 5k services they performed under the 2 year 25k mile Toyota Complete Care were denied by Toyota Corporate and they can no longer perform those services (and charge Toyota) because they are not a certified RAV4EV dealer. This pisses me off. All they are doing is rotating tires and checking the fluids. It's not like they are doing any EV related work.

I'm going to get a copy of the correspondence they received from corporate and try to talk to someone at Toyota about it. This is ridiculous.

 

[miimura]

My Austin dealer just called me to say that the last two 5k services they performed under the 2 year 25k mile Toyota Complete Care were denied by Toyota Corporate and they can no longer perform those services (and charge Toyota) because they are not a certified RAV4EV dealer. This pisses me off. All they are doing is rotating tires and checking the fluids. It's not like they are doing any EV related work.

I'm going to get a copy of the correspondence they received from corporate and try to talk to someone at Toyota about it. This is ridiculous.

How much do they want to charge you in lieu of Toyota Care payment?

 

[mkjayakumar]

I called again and this time I asked for a letter in writing. A 'manager' came on the line and was much wiser. He read out a section from Toyota website (Toyota.com/rav4ev) apparently stating that "only authorized rav4 EV dealers can service this vehicle", and said there are none outside CA.

Man, I am bummed. I really love and want this EV, perfect for my 70 mile round trip commute. But even a $5 fuse would cost me thousands on shipping to 'nearest authorized' dealer for repairs.

A part of me says, take a risk and jump in. Model S is way pricey compared to this. I am planning to stop by Tesla service center to see if they can do something about this. And I have only 2 more days before the good lease deals run out.

I am pissed Toyota. I give them zero credits for making this vehicle. But I give them a lot of negative credits for making it so hard on rest of the US.

I sometimes dream that I am relocating to CA just for all the amazing EV options and deals.

 

[EVlearner]

I think toyota is going to roll over the deal to oct.if not, and they come out with lesser deal,they will see sales drop and revert back to a richer deal in future month...that is, if they really plan to reach target.

I read of so much enthusiasm for the car, it really is too bad that Toyota won't at least help set up one authorized dealer in these other states.. I know, they are losing money per car, and if they had it their way, would discontinue period..

What if some sort of petition started? Help Toyota see how much more quickly they would reach quota if they allow out of state sales, even if limited to a few states perhaps? or would that get people in trouble?

I hope it works out for you. The extra range is a definite plus over all other EVs, except tesla, much more $.

 

[miimura]

I called again and this time I asked for a letter in writing. A 'manager' came on the line and was much wiser. He read out a section from Toyota website (Toyota.com/rav4ev) apparently stating that "only authorized rav4 EV dealers can service this vehicle", and said there are none outside CA.

10. Covers normal factory scheduled service performed at an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer for 2 years or 25K miles, whichever comes first. The new Toyota vehicle cannot be part of a rental or commercial fleet, or a livery or taxi vehicle. See participating dealer for complete plan details. Valid only in the continental United States and Alaska.

There are three issues.
1. Will Toyota pay for complimentary maintenance at a dealer that is not a "Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer"? No. The guy in Austin has already been turned down. My reading of that post is that they will not do it for free any more. However, my impression is that they have no problem doing the service, but the owner has to pay for it.
2. Will Toyota allow any dealer to work on the car? How could they stop it? If they owner is willing to pay for parts and labor, why would the dealer not work on it? This is not the problem.
3. Will Toyota pay for warranty work at dealers that are not a "Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer"? They have been trying to weasel out of it, but federal law says they have to. I don't think we've yet reached the point where somebody's car has been inoperable at an out of state dealer and Toyota has refused to authorize warranty work.

Clearly, shipping a RAV4 EV out of state has some risk to the owner. It just depends how badly you want it and how you feel about pushing for your rights with Toyota.

 

[madcow]

miimura, Kevin flat out told me that the work they are doing on my car is a courtesy. He flatly stated that this is being done outside the warranty. Servco Pacific will not be reimbursed for the work that they are doing. Therefore, I'm not sure how long or how many times this courtesy will be extended.

If I ever have a serious problem and they deny service, I'm going to sue them for sure. However, a single person suing the largest auto manufacturer in the world isn't going to be as effective as all out of state owners banding together and requesting to be considered a class. A class action lawsuit against Toyota will have much more teeth and my guess is that they would prefer to settle by simply finding a way to provide service.

 

[miimura]

miimura, Kevin flat out told me that the work they are doing on my car is a courtesy. He flatly stated that this is being done outside the warranty. Servco Pacific will not be reimbursed for the work that they are doing. Therefore, I'm not sure how long or how many times this courtesy will be extended.

If I ever have a serious problem and they deny service, I'm going to sue them for sure. However, a single person suing the largest auto manufacturer in the world isn't going to be as effective as all out of state owners banding together and requesting to be considered a class. A class action lawsuit against Toyota will have much more teeth and my guess is that they would prefer to settle by simply finding a way to provide service.

Honestly, I don't believe that Servco would do anything without some reimbursement. What? They're doing it just to not piss off Toyota USA? Toyota may not be legally obligated by their contract with Servco, but I don't believe that there is no money changing hands. If anything, Toyota is doing you the "courtesy" of honoring the warranty without you having to sue them. I just don't take what Kevin told you at face value as the whole truth.

If there comes a time that they will not fix your car under warranty, I would go to the local news investigative reporters and see if they will take up your story. I think bringing cars from the mainland is relatively common and having a major manufacturer refusing warranty service is a big deal that would stir some public interest.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I would go to the local news investigative reporters and see if they will take up your story. I think bringing cars from the mainland is relatively common and having a major manufacturer refusing warranty service is a big deal that would stir some public interest.

I agree 100%. This little game that they are playing for CARB-ZEV credits, and trying so hard to try and contain any cost inside California is a losing game for Toyota in the long haul.

But, that doesn't mean they won't stonewall all they can. The odds of upsetting a determined enough person or group or persons to successfully sue Toyota is still in Toyota's favor. Plus, any class action total pay out would be teeny tiny, with only 2600 total cars to worry about, and only a few percentage of those cars out of state.

Don't worry, the Toyota legal team has signed off on this as a viable gamble.

 

[Kohler Controller]

Got my car back from the dealer. The roving Toyota Field Technician came in town and had the correct diagnostic tool to update the firmware. As predicted on this list, my version was 1.3.57 and they upgraded it to 1.3.62. The details simply state: The EV Gateway Control ECU logic has been updated to improve vehicle operation and charging timer operation.

This is from a Technical Service Bulletin (March 25, 2013, REV1), T-SB-0050-13, "ECU Software Update: Charging System Improvement"



I also received a print out of the freeze frame information during my first "Check EV System" occurrence. Nothing specific showed what caused the error to trip, but it is neat to see all of the information available. I hope you hackers out there can get the right stuff to monitor this information in the future.

I have one thing I'd like to figure out. It says that the SOC was 57.4% and Battery Remaining Amount was 19 kWh. From a picture I took of the dash that day, I can see I had 10 bars showing. So with that data, it is hard for me to match up 57.4% to 19 kWh remaining. On face value, that would mean that at 100%, I would have 33.1kWh usable, which is lower than I expected for standard charge setting. SOC could technically refer to the absolute battery SOC (i.e. 100% = 49.3kWh rated capacity), the available energy SOC (i.e. 100% = 41.8kWh usable capacity), or simply the bar graph SOC (100% = >35kWh). We don't know how much is inaccessible at the bottom, below CCL, that is not attainable, so the 19kWh it's showing could start at CCL.

Tony, any closer to that scan tool?

 

[mkjayakumar]

So is there an official 'roving Toyota Field Technician' ? or was this one off, just for your incident and no more after this ?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have one thing I'd like to figure out. It says that the SOC was 57.4% and Battery Remaining Amount was 19 kWh. From a picture I took of the dash that day, I can see I had 10 bars showing. So with that data, it is hard for me to match up 57.4% to 19 kWh remaining. On face value, that would mean that at 100%, I would have 33.1kWh usable, which is lower than I expected for standard charge setting. SOC could technically refer to the absolute battery SOC (i.e. 100% = 49.3kWh rated capacity), the available energy SOC (i.e. 100% = 41.8kWh usable capacity), or simply the bar graph SOC (100% = >35kWh). We don't know how much is inaccessible at the bottom, below CCL, that is not attainable, so the 19kWh it's showing could start at CCL.

Tony, any closer to that scan tool?

Sadly, no. I haven't been working on it, but it's not forgotten! It's going to take some dedicated time to decode what Toyota/Tesla mean with their data.

Since I have pumped 50kWh into the battery, at 41.8kWh usable, that's 83.6% charging efficiency on that day. Obviously, that % will change with ambient temperature requiring more or less TMS, degradation with high internal resistance, charging speed that changes the amount of time for TMS and other "vampire" loads to run, voltage (high voltage is likely more efficient by a significant margin, i.e., 120 volts versus 240 volts), etc.

Let's say that the battery is 46kWh rated capacity and 1kWh is left in the battery at "contactor open" (cutoff):

57% SOC would be about 26.2kWh (or 25.2kWh usable), not 19kWh. With 10 fuel bars showing on the uber accurate fuel gauge, certainly that reflects about 50% +/- remaining of the usable energy, which certainly means around 20.9kWh usable.

57% of 41.8kWh usable is 23.8kWh.

19kWh is likely 57% of the 33.1kWh figure... some nutty stuff.

 

[miimura]

Nothing specific showed what caused the error to trip, but it is neat to see all of the information available.

Um, doesn't the line below say what caused the error?

Doesn't that also match your error sequence? Moving the shifter in a specific way triggers Check EV System?

 

[jspearman]

I'm really curious about this roving Toyota guy. It's Texas, so I expect he travels by horse from dealer to dealer Now we know it can be done and have a precedent. That will go a long way in a BBB dispute.

 

[user 504]

As a Texan, let me assure you that we all travel in large trucks and never go anywhere without at least one loaded firearm.

 

[Kohler Controller]

So is there an official 'roving Toyota Field Technician' ? or was this one off, just for your incident and no more after this ?

The Toyota Field Technician was coming into town for another reason. Since I had been in the week before and inquired about getting the proper scan tool, the dealership asked around and found out this guy had one and that he would be at the dealership if I wanted to bring my car back in. This was done "gratis" by both the technician and by the dealership. No submitting of time charged to Toyota Corporate.

I would imagine that I would have to work around his schedule in the future should I need any other service performed with the scan tool.

 

[Kohler Controller]

Nothing specific showed what caused the error to trip, but it is neat to see all of the information available.

Um, doesn't the line below say what caused the error?

Doesn't that also match your error sequence? Moving the shifter in a specific way triggers Check EV System?

The top line shows time in seconds before and after the event (-2, -1, 0, 1), with 0 being the event captured. You can see that Detail 2 code 488 popped up after the event. This caused my internal shift position to go from B to N without my input.

As to your observation, the "Cause of READY ON Failure" showed "Shift operation" for all 4 seconds captured, so I don't know that it means anything.

 

[Kohler Controller]

Nothing specific showed what caused the error to trip, but it is neat to see all of the information available.

Um, doesn't the line below say what caused the error?

Doesn't that also match your error sequence? Moving the shifter in a specific way triggers Check EV System?

One can also see that "Cause of Forced Ready Off" was "EP Sys Run NG", whatever that means.

 

[mkjayakumar]

I would imagine that I would have to work around his schedule in the future should I need any other service performed with the scan tool.

I don't mind working around anyone schedules, as long as there is a gentleman agreement that someone will take care of the issues. Do you think I can talk to your dealer and find out more about this ?

I really need this car and I am willing to do whatever it takes as long as I am not left with the only option of shipping it to CA for every little fuse that blows out.