What are PG&E electricity prices for RV parks?

[jlhodges]

As explained below, I am putting together a handout to give to RV park managers to persuade them let us charge our RAV4EV there but I don't know the price they pay for electricity. (I'm in SMUD territory and am not familiar with PG&E rates).

My wife and I live in East Sacramento and have only one car, the RAV4EV. We bought Tony's Jesla portable adapter last year and have used the 14-50 adapter at an RV park in Chico (Almond Tree RV Park) to visit family and in Cloverdale (Dutcher Creek RV park) on our way to Mendocino (where we stayed at the Stanford Inn which has 2 charging stations). At both RV parks we just showed up and then needed to do a lot of talking to skeptical RV park management to convince them this was not some sort of strange scam to rip them off somehow. We showed them the vehicle, showed them the adapter, talked about the cost of electricity, the amount electricity needed, and the length of time we will be occupying a space. They seemed a bit perplexed but said, OK, give it a try. Things went fine and now they are open to others coming in to charge.

Then a few weeks ago we were preparing to drive to Monterey to visit friends and decided to drive our son's ICE car and along the way (via the coast: Pacifica, Half Moon Bay, Santa Cruz) stop at RV parks and see who was open to EV charging. First thing we learned: Let my wife to the talking. I look like a criminal scam artist, apparently. Second, even if we had the RAV4 with us, it would be helpful to have a printed handout, with pictures and explanations, summarizing the whole deal. Therefore, I am working on such a handout and need some help about PG&E electric rates at RV parks. I have a section that reads:

How much will it cost to "fill up" the battery?
Electricity is priced per kWh.  To find the cost of electricity to fill the battery from “empty” to “full,” we take the average PG&E electricity price per kWh times the 42 kWh capacity of the battery:
Winter (Nov 1 – April 30)           $0.xx per  kWh   x  42 kWh = $x
Summer (May 1 – Oct 31)          $0.xx per  kWh   x  42 kWh = $x

What does an RV park pay for electricity? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[miimura]

You can see all of PG&E's rates at http://www.pge.com/tariffs

I don't know what rate schedule an RV park would be on, but I think the default would be A-1 "Small General Service". However, if the peak demand exceeds 75kW for three consecutive months or the annual consumption is over 150,000 kWh and they have over 1 year of interval data history (SmartMeter installed), then they will be kicked off this rate to another rate plan. I'm assuming that rate plan would be A-6 "Small General Time-Of-Use Service".

A-1 Rates (per kWh):
Fixed charges: ~$20/mo
Peak Summer $0.24756
Part-Peak Summer $0.23875
Off-Peak Summer $0.21195
Part-Peak Winter $0.16801
Off-Peak Winter $0.14881

A-6 Rates (per kWh):
Fixed Charges: ~$26/mo
Peak Summer $0.56598
Part-Peak Summer $0.26347
Off-Peak Summer $0.14799
Part-Peak Winter $0.16935
Off-Peak Winter $0.13799

A-1 used to be flat Summer and Winter, but the TOU rates above became mandatory in November 2012. You can see that the A-1 Peak is only 17% higher than Off-Peak while A-6 Peak is 282% higher than Off-Peak.
Both of these rate plans have Peak Day Pricing, which I will not explain here.

 

[jlhodges]

Thank you, miimura.

Thanks, Jimboy, but I don't have that problem.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Electricity is priced per kWh.  To find the cost of electricity to fill the battery from “empty” to “full,” we take the average PG&E electricity price per kWh times the 42 kWh capacity of the battery:
Winter (Nov 1 – April 30)           $0.xx per  kWh   x  42 kWh = $x
Summer (May 1 – Oct 31)          $0.xx per  kWh   x  42 kWh = $x

What does an RV park pay for electricity? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The actual amount to refill a depleted battery is 50kWh on 240 volt / 40 amp RV park service.

On 120 volt "30 amp RV service", it would be about 55kWh.

 

[pchilds]

I don't know about the RAV4 EV, but, the LEAF is 90% efficient at 240 volts. That would be 47.5 kWh from dead, 45 is the most I would expect to see used.

 

[Dsinned]

A generally informative handout would be nice to have for sure to address any concerns RV Parks may have to allow EV charging.

A 240V 50A outlet would ordinarily be used by a large size motor home that also has an on board generator. The RV owner would probably prefer a "full services" rental space to avoid the noise and gasoline and/or propane usage to keep the genset running all the time. I suspect the RV owner pays nothing extra for the cost of the hookup services (water and electricity).

It is conceivable that a full size RV, in the Winter or Summer (with continuous need for either electric radiant heating or A/C respectively), could consume ~50kWh in a single rental day (considered 24 hours). This would put the cost of electric power somewhere around $10 to $20 at most, assuming consumption occurred during a "peak" rate period.

If a typical park only rents a RV space with 240V electrical services for 24 hours minimum, and does not have a rental rate policy specifically for EV charging purposes only, the cost may be relatively excessive.

A typical "budget" motel room would cost about $40/night (double occupancy) at the absolute minimum. You could probably get a "free" overnight charge from the room's A/C outlet at most motels. But, the charge would not be in the middle of the day when electric rates are highest. I suspect an RV park, especially during the prime tourist season, charges considerably more per day (or night?).

What I am suggesting is your "handout" should probably play down the cost of electricity. Instead, it should be promoting a "prorated" rental fee (4 to 8 hours) for EV charging purposes only. A fee of no more than $0.50/hour would certainly cover the cost of the electricity alone, but not the potential "loss" when an EV is using a rental space normally allocated to a full fledged RV likely to be paying more like $75 to $100/day (during the prime season).

Probably a "fair" price to pay for EV charging would be no more than $1.50 per hour. Thus, the time to fully recharge at an RV Park should be about $10 in terms of the actual rental fee for the electricity alone. Perhaps, an additional "service charge" of a fixed amount (say, $15 max) can be tacked on to that.

If charging at a RV Park cost more than $25 total per 4 to 6 hours of charging time, the average EV owner might be well inclined to look for a public charging station somewhere else instead.

What I am getting at is "the handout" should be kind of a negotiation tool to avoid getting ripped off! :mrgreen:

 

[TonyWilliams]

I don't know about the RAV4 EV, but, the LEAF is 90% efficient at 240 volts. That would be 47.5 kWh from dead, 45 is the most I would expect to see used.

I measured 50kWh from turtle when new (it's when the Blink / Rema meltdown happened).

November 2012.

 

[TonyWilliams]

?.A typical "budget" motel room would cost about $40/night (double occupancy) at the absolute minimum. You could probably get a "free" overnight charge from the room's A/C outlet at most motels. But, the charge would not be in the middle of the day when electric rates are highest. I suspect an RV park, especially during the prime tourist season, charges considerably more per day (or night?).

If you have permission from the hotel, I don't see this as a problem. If I found you plugged into my hotel without permission, I would start by cutting your cord to stop the blatant theft, then I would calli the cops. Then, you can talk until you're blue in the face to the police about how your theft was so small it shouldn't matter to the person you are stealing from (or whatever other bullshit story may pop up).

Stealing electricity doesn't set the proper tone for mass EV adoption. Getting permission and/or offering to pay a reasonable fee is the correct course.

What I am suggesting is your "handout" should probably play down the cost of electricity. Instead, it should be promoting a "prorated" rental fee (4 to 8 hours) for EV charging purposes only. A fee of no more than $0.50/hour would certainly cover the cost of the electricity...

There is no way electricity is 50 cents an hour from an RV park. The national average electricity is 12 cents per kWh, and I can suck down 9.6kWh in an hour.

Over a dollar an hour in direct costs on average.

 

[fooljoe]

I don't know about the RAV4 EV, but, the LEAF is 90% efficient at 240 volts. That would be 47.5 kWh from dead, 45 is the most I would expect to see used.

The Rav's about 80% efficient on 240V and 66% efficient on 120V. Of course it's very unlikely that anyone's going to be turtling into an RV park, so the 42 kwh figure is probably pretty close to how much would be consumed in the average Rav4-EV charge event.

 

[Dsinned]

I agree with fooljoe. 42kWh is probably about right for a full charge - even extended - in most cases.

To follow up on the RV Park discussion, has anybody found a park that "prorates" their normal rental rates for EV charging only? If so, what was the fee you were charged? Was it by the hour? Was the park management open to paying a special discounted fee ala carte? I have no experience with RV Parks, so what would the highest fee possibly be for a full fledged RV space rental with full hook ups? Would there be any difference in the fee if an EV charged from a TT30 (120V) vs. TT50 (240V) outlet?

Tony makes a good point about the cost of electricity in an RV Park. From a TT50 outlet, an EV with a suitably portable L2 EVSE would be able to charge at ~10kW, so after an hour, electricity consumed would be 10kWh; 10 times what I originally stated for the cost per hour. Therefore, the actual cost per hour probably would be somewhere between $1.00 on the low side to as much as $5.00 on the high side. A full extended charge using a 10kW capable EVSE, would take ~4 to 5 hours.

The RV Park's "half day" rental fee for EV charging purposes only, theoretically, could be anywhere from about $5 to $25 just to recover the cost of the electricity. Add to that some sort of "service charge", say $5 to $15, and the min to max fee could range from $10 to $40, or an average of $25. That would typically be the cost to buy about 7 gallon of gas, which the average ICE car uses to drive about 175 highway miles at 25 mpg.

Based on the gasoline analogy, perhaps the RV Park's "half day" fee for an EV charging session should be no more than $20 (or about $4/hr). This would be equivalent to buying ~5.5 gal of gas to travel ~137 miles in an ICE car. Of course, if the RV Park owner wants to be truly "eco-friendly", s/he might be willing to charge considerably less. :mrgreen:

I think this particular pricing model might work in the off season, but could easily more than double during the prime tourist season. Which brings up the question of "check out time"; the big rigs probably don't get off the highway until late afternoon at the earliest, so a 2 pm checkout time seems reasonable. This would be acceptable to most EV drivers, because getting a charge over the lunch hour probably would be the ideal time.

Comments?

 

[DevinL]

To follow up on the RV Park discussion, has anybody found a park that "prorates" their normal rental rates for EV charging only? If so, what was the fee you were charged? Was it by the hour? Was the park management open to paying a special discounted fee ala carte? I have no experience with RV Parks, so what would the highest fee possibly be for a full fledged RV space rental with full hook ups? Would there be any difference in the fee if an EV charged from a TT30 (120V) vs. TT50 (240V) outlet?

When we did the Utah trip we paid flat rates at all the RV parks. Most RV park managers or desk staff don't really want to get in to per/kWh pricing or anything, especially since they are usually unfamiliar with the specific power needs of an EV. Most parks do have meters on the power posts, but I think it'd be unusual to encounter someone who wants to bill on a per/kWh basis right now.

The lowest I was charged at an RV park was $5, and the owner was very pro-EV and also excited to see her first RAV4 EV. She said she didn't care if she lost a couple bucks because it built a good reputation for her park (true indeed). In Baker, $10 was the going rate though the fellow at the park was clearly trying to see how much he could get me for. A KOA in Utah wanted $20, but I negotiated $20 for two uses (one in morning and one in evening) so that worked out fine. When we stayed overnight in the Valley of Fire we camped in the car and paid the regular RV hookup fee + camping fee ($10 + $10). I encountered no questions about TT-30 vs 14-50, it was assumed I would want 14-50 at all sites.

 

[Dsinned]

Devini, good to know based on your "real world" experience. Paying a flat fee is probably the norm now, but I wonder what may come in years to come for EV travelers using RV Parks for re-charging purposes? Thanks!

 

[lemketron]

What's the best resource to track which RV parks will let you charge on a 14-50 (ideally at 40A), and how much they cost?

PlugShare has a filter for 14-50 outlets, but I'm guessing there are plenty of RV parks that are not (yet?) listed in PlugShare. It would be great if folks would add them there whenever they discover a park that allows EV charging (along with details like how much they were charged and maybe a contact person to ask for if not all of the park staff are agreeable).

The "RV Parks" app (on iOS) lets you filter on "50A power" so that could also be helpful, like for calling ahead to see which parks had availability and were willing to let you charge.

I'm heading to Pinnacles next weekend (90 miles from Sunnyvale). Their web site didn't say anything about 50A power, but there is a listing in PlugShare which seems to have conflicting information: it says 14-50 outlets are available, but the included photos show a 14-50 outlet that is labeled "not in service". Taking the RAV would be fun, but we don't have extra time to wait for charging and it seems risky without having been there before. If we did have a little extra time, it sounds like we could stop at Casa de Fruita on the way there and/or back.

 

[sbportech]

To me the best thing to do is offer $10 and be willing to pay a little more, I have a friend that owns a RV park and has asked me about letting people charge. He said that in the summer his electric bill can be well over $5000. He was good with the $10 and was even thinking of putting in a charger rather than let people plug in to a rv spot. He is not on PGE rates and I will ask him what his /kwh cost is next time we talk. I think that the biggest thing to do is be nice and not act like they owe you something.
On a side note, the place I work has a $40000 electric bill in the summer and we are charged both on how much we use, when we use it and the peak load for 15 min. It was amazing that by turning on the lights 15 min before the compressors would save so much on the bill. I have yet to see the bill sense we switched to LED lights but the est was it would be half. Good luck with your poster and keep us informed how it goes.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I have probably used RV parks more than anybody on this site. I typically offer $10, but have paid as little as $5.

On one occasion, the electricity was metered. That's mostly for long term "snow birds" and the like; there wouldn't normally even be a meter present.

The most I have paid is the full price of the camp spot, $65.

Always ask for "50 amp service", since the RV parks generally habpve no idea about 120 volts and 240 volts.


The Rav4 EV will take up to 20 amps at 120 volts, which an RV park will call "30 amp" service.

The Rav4 EV will take up to 40 amps at 240 volts. Which an RV park will call "50 amp" service.


All the above will require a 100-250 volt capable and portable charge cable, with the capability to adjust amperage based on which plug is used, like JESLA.


The best site to find 50 amp RV outlets (NEMA 14-50) is AllStays, which has a really good paid app.

Please view this video, and you'll learn about the "Advanced Filters" which is where you can select "50 amp" service only. Great app:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZe6FwXZMls
4 Jul 2012 - Uploaded by AllStays
A big whirlwind overview of the powerful AllStays Camp and RV app.