Using just 110: Practical?

[Khaihon]

Hi all,

After seeing this month's promotion (Toyota $10k + tax incentives of $10k) and being in the market for an electric vehicle: I'm passing on a Leaf for the Rav4EV. This forums just seals the deal for me.

I am renting a house and I park outside. Renting a home does pose some complications with getting a Levitron charger installed. Is it practical to just charge it on 110 and use a public charger? I work near a couple stations and I can probably have it charge there for 6 hours at a time. What other considerations should I look into to know if this will work?

My driving pattern is about 30 miles a day total so I am thinking of charging it every 2-3 days publicly and just leave it at home charging on the weekends.

 

[cwerdna]

Depends on how much range you need between charges.

If you have a 220/240 volt outlet or can get one installed cheaply, you could send the stock L1 EVSE (cord w/brick and J1772 connector) to http://www.evseupgrade.com/. That'd be cheaper than getting a wall-mounted EVSE installed the the Leviton you mention.

Unfortunately, it'll still charge slower than a than the 40 amp unit at http://toyota.leviton.com/solutions/rav4ev.

 

[Khaihon]

Rangewise: I'm expecting to need to charge it every 3 days (30 miles a day)

I definitely don't have 240 at home, but lemme get this straight: if I get the stock EVSE mod, the I should be able to charge much faster than stock but not as fast as a fully installed station?

Also, how do public charging stations work? Do we have to use our own plugs or are there plugs already there and we just plug our cars into them? If we have to use our own, is the 240v mod necessary like up you mentioned necessary for the faster charge?

Thanks for pointing a link to the evseupgrade. Looks like a cool site!

 

[cwerdna]

Rangewise: I'm expecting to need to charge it every 3 days (30 miles a day)

I think you should be fine w/the slow speed of charging at 120 volts w/the stock L1 EVSE. It might be a problem if you have a time-of-use (TOU) electric plan and you want to stay out of the more expensive times.

I definitely don't have 240 at home, but lemme get this straight: if I get the stock EVSE mod, the I should be able to charge much faster than stock but not as fast as a fully installed station?

Uhh... you probably have 240 at home, if you have an dryer or electric range. Basically yes, unless you install an EVSE that happens to only provide the same max output as the modded L1 EVSE. The Leviton unit I pointed to earlier will be MUCH faster, if that matters.

Also, how do public charging stations work? Do we have to use our own plugs or are there plugs already there and we just plug our cars into them? If we have to use our own, is the 240v mod necessary like up you mentioned necessary for the faster charge?

Thanks for pointing a link to the evseupgrade. Looks like a cool site!

It depends, but most of what people think of as public charging is J1772 level 2 charging. You plug your car into them and don't need (and won't be able to use) the stock L1 EVSE. L2 public charging will charge faster than the stock L1 EVSE. How much faster depends on the public charging station's max output but it should be at least 2x the speed, if not faster.

If you want to charge on 120 volt outlets (and there's no J1772), you'll need to bring the L1 EVSE along. If you want to charge at say RV parks using 200+ volt service, you'll need to bring along some EVSE that can handle it and likely the proper adapters. TonyWilliams is an expert at this.

evseupgrade.com is run by Ingineer of mynissanleaf.com. He's a respected member of that forum.

 

[Khaihon]

Wow thanks so much for the info. I learned more in the past 12 hours about EV cars than in any time prior to that, and especially in this thread alone.

The confusion I had with the public charging was because I work in Century City and the mall there provides public EV parking and charging, but then I later found out that all it is are 120 volt outlets! After digging around and confirmed by your response, it sounds like this is not typical of charging stations then.

So looks like that will not be a practical way to charge. Still, if I have a charge rate of about 2mi/hr, on a 6 hour charge at work, I could recover 12 miles, which is little less than half my commute.

I will find out about the amperage of my house. It's a
Pretty old house so I doubted it had 240, but I'm a total dummy on high voltage electrics. I assumed it didn't because my washer and dryer uses the standard looking plugs (i am probably confusing my currents and volts. shows you what I know), but I should just get an electrician out and get an analysis.

 

[cwerdna]

^^
No prob. I believe Century City Mall used to have L2 J1772 charging stations but those went away when Coda's store closed. See http://priuschat.com/threads/charging-in-century-city-shopping-center.119553/#post-1705576.

http://evseupgrade.com/images/categories/outlet-types.png has a pic of various outlet types. Most of this stuff is almost Greek to me. http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/universal-mobile-connector-adapters might help too (ignore the fact that it's Tesla for now, just look at the chart in the lower right).

BTW, do NOT attempt to feed a stock (unmodded) L1 EVSE w/200+ volts via adapters. You WILL damage it and let out the "magic smoke" (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/M/magic-smoke.html). If you care, see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=246513#p246513. (That was a meeting where the Leaf's Chief Vehicle Engineer, Kadota-san was present along w/a bunch of senior Nissan folks + Nissan engineers from Japan.)

Also, I'd be wary of charging at 120 volts using the stock L1 EVSE in unsecured/public locations, unless you can secure it. It might get stolen and it is NOT cheap (somewhere over $500) to replace. Even if you can secure it, a determined thief (esp. a copper thief) might cut the cable.

Semi-OT: That Priuschat thread mentioned SPI and Avcon being gone. If you're curious about them, see the pic on the right side of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charging_station#Smart_grid_communication, http://www.evnut.com/charge_paddle_adapter.htm, http://www.evnut.com/charge_adapter_avcon.html and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5925. They're old standards that are useless on currently sold EVs anyway, at least w/o adapters.

 

[palocat]

The garage at 1875 Century Park East used to have two L2 chargers on the first floor- I believe that the chargers are part of the Chargepoint Network- Parking and the cost of power are expensive so you would have to get a monthly parking pass to justify the cost but it might solve your problem on an interim basis- Good Luck

 

[Khaihon]

cwerdna, That some great information that would have taken me days to look up on my own. Wow. I'm definitely going to have to figure out my charging situation at home. I think I will do an outdoor 120v overnight charge for my commute for the time being until I can clear out my garage (read: household storage) and figure out how to hook it up to the laundry circuit which is also in the garage. I think I can live with that. Seems outdoor 120 is safe whereas outdoor charging via 240 is not.

palocat, I work over in the Century Towers and I believe they have some charging stations in the underground parking. My work pays for me to park in the lot across the street since it costs them less than parking underground, but I will have to see if they are willing to at least partial pay for me to park in underground for a charge. I guess I'll have to see how my range will be based on my home 120v overnight charge to see if it is necessary. I'm crossing my fingers it'll be enough to cover my daily roundtrip.

I feel a lot better about getting a RAV4EV now! Thanks!

 

[jspearman]

For about 8 months we used nothing but a GFCI outlet to charge our Leaf with no problem. My wife's commute was around 25 miles. The RAV is less efficient, so it will take longer to charge the RAV over the same distance, but I don't think your plan is unreasonable.

As I've written elsewhere, please make sure your circuit isn't overloaded before plugging the RAV in. I discovered that all our garage outlets, the garage door opener, the dishwasher, the garbage disposal, 2 kitchen lights, and one kitchen outlet were all on the same circuit, and I had a bad circuit breaker. I'm not sure of the amp draw from the RAV's EVSE, but someone here could tell you. I know my Volt is variable between 8 and 12 amps.

 

[Dsinned]

I think the vast majority of EV owners, although maybe not iniitially, will almost certainly "upgrade" to some type of Level 2 EVSE, so that they can speed up their charging needs via 240V. It just takes too long to charge at 120V and there will surely come a time when that is a real world issue, but your charging needs will never be completely resolved when you are away from home. There is not nearly enough public charging stations around, like there is currently with gas stations.

It may take at least another decade for EVs to REALLY catch on and public charging infrastructure to become widespread everywhere you drive. Nevertheless, most of us manage to charge our EVs mainly "at home", during overnight periods when electricity rates are generally lowest, and most "efficiently" time wise by using L2 EVSEs.

However, without a L2 EVSE, you wil probably find it much more difficult to have enough time "within the window" to keep your EV fully charged only from late at night to early morning charging periods. Conversely, charging during the middle of a weekday - at home - will often incur the stiff penalty of paying 3 or 4 times higher for your electricity.

 

[Khaihon]

In my exploring phase of an EV purchase, my wishful thinking hoped I could do all my charging out of my house for free, but as I found more and more information from this thread, it looks like that really is just wishful thinking. Seems like there are a several options for a renter like myself (who can't do a full locally-permitted charger installation at home).

Deal with 120v (On an overnight charge, estimating a recharge of 2 mil/hour, I can recover 20 miles over 10 hours based on the 103mi/52h estimated distance-charge time for 120v). At this rate on a 30 mile commute, I will have a daily net loss of 10mi in range and will be forced to charge it for a at least a whole day on the weekend. Probably oversimplifying the math, but I think the concern is there.

Park my car at a garage during work hours that have the Level 2 charging and pay for it with just light 120v charging at home on the weekend (probably around $70/month if I can get it subsidized at all + $0.95/hour).

Do a cheap 240v hookup to the house and an EVSE upgrade (which seems to be problematic unless I can park indoors).

Is this a pretty complete list of options? What would you choose? Certainly it would diminish the value proposition, but would any of these things be dealbreakers to buying an EV (120v only charging/cannot park indoors/cannot charge at work)?

 

[Dsinned]

If you have a relative or a good friend (even a REALLY friendly neighbor) who lives within walking distance to where you live or work, you can ask them to allow YOU to install a L2 EVSE at their single family home. You pay all the installation cost - preferably for a semi-portable (plug-in) unit - and park their for a recharge as needed. Of course, you have to offer to pay that portion of their electric bill used by your car (which still WAY cheaper than buying gasoline), and they to give you permission to park in their garage or driveway while your car is there being charged. Btw, the longest output cord available in a L2 charger is generally 25'.

Same idea, but with a co-worker who wants to do a "ride share" with you in your car. Again, s/he has to live close by and have a place for you to install a charger and gives you permission to park/charge on the premises.

Another option is to politely "ask" your employer to install a L2 EVSE that you and other EV owners who work there pay to use. A really "good" employer may do this and let you charge for free, but only if YOU are also a really GOOD employee.

Neither of these alternatives are the best option by any means, short of owning your own home, but in the interests of "going green" and everyone doing their part for the environment, maybe you can find a sympathetic supporter.

 

[FreshAndClean]

I've had my rav ev for about a month and a half and still don't have my l2 evse installed. Its taking a while to het it installed and approved by ladwp for use on a separate TOU meter. So I've been charging 120v everyday when I get home for about 12 hours each night. My commute is 60 miles round trip everyday (on the 405). I usually charge at a chargepoint station about 4-5 hours a week total.

So I think what you are describing is doable. I drive pretty efficiently ~3.5 miles/kwh. The GOM fills up at about 3 miles per hour of charge. Chargepoint chargers fill up at about 6kw rate. So I can get about 21 miles per hour of charge.

Having a L2 evse is definitely going to make the rav4 ev a lot more convenient. However, I have gotten along just fine so far without it. I'm not in a huge rush to have my l2 evse installed but I also don't see finding stations as that much of an inconvenience.

Hope this helps!

 

[Khaihon]

Wow... Barely a member for a day and there's so many awesome answers! I definitely feel more at ease going into make a purchase. My situation isn't ideal, but I'm so excited at not having to use gas (and all the maintenance of an ICE) and seeing others in a similar situation come together to help is just awesome.

I'm going to check out DCH Toyota of Torrance and Santa Monica Toyota and will hopefully own a RAV4ev this weekend thanks in huge part to this forum! Will report back soon!

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
I know nothing about those dealers but Dianne at Carson Toyota frequently posts at Priuschat. http://priuschat.com/threads/diannes-socal-inventory-and-deals-for-the-2012-rav4-evs-in-march-april-2013.123058/#post-1778339 is her current post, AFAIK.

I've never even met her but it seems like there are numerous satisfied buyers from her but it doesn't sound like her prices are necessarily the lowest. At least use her prices as a worst case as you should be able to get those numbers from her w/o haggling.

Do heed the warning at http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=403#p403, in the event leasing comes up or you were planning to...

 

[Khaihon]

Definitely will not be leasing the Rav4ev for this reason. Diane seems to have legendary status. I sent out an email to reach out to her and will call her tomorrow. She even posts her inventory information here: http://priuschat.com/threads/diannes-socal-inventory-and-deals-for-the-2012-rav4-evs-in-march-april-2013.123058/

Toyota Carson doesn't seem to have any Blizzard Whites but if they get any in between now and April 30th, I may just buy it from her.

 

[AvLegends]

http://priuschat.com/threads/diannes-socal-inventory-and-deals-for-the-2012-rav4-evs-in-march-april-2013.123058/

Toyota Carson doesn't seem to have any Blizzard Whites but if they get any in between now and April 30th, I may just buy it from her.

Yes, the Blizzard Pearl inventory seems to have dried up at Carson Toyota. I think the BP white is the most popular color.

You might ask her if she could find one thru a dealer trade if you really want one by the end of the month. When I was talking to her she offered this option to me. I ended up buying locally as they met... even beat her price at the local dealership. She is first class and if I wasn't able to cut a deal locally I was going to buy from her. Straight shooter... no BS... Knows about the EV products!

 

[Kohler Controller]

Is this a pretty complete list of options? What would you choose? Certainly it would diminish the value proposition, but would any of these things be dealbreakers to buying an EV (120v only charging/cannot park indoors/cannot charge at work)?

Why not upgrade the EVSE that comes with it to 240VAC by shipping it off to
http://www.evseupgrade.com/

then buy an adapter to charge it from two separate 120VAC sockets from
http://www.quick220.com/220_catalog.htm

don't forget to buy an adapter cable
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEMA-14-30-14-50-to-L6-20-adapter-for-EVSE-Nissan-LEAF-/130733918443?pt=US_Adapters&hash=item1e705948eb

Now, you'll be able to charge at 4 miles per hour which should satisfy your needs.

 

[miimura]

In my exploring phase of an EV purchase, my wishful thinking hoped I could do all my charging out of my house for free, but as I found more and more information from this thread, it looks like that really is just wishful thinking. Seems like there are a several options for a renter like myself (who can't do a full locally-permitted charger installation at home).

Deal with 120v (On an overnight charge, estimating a recharge of 2 mil/hour, I can recover 20 miles over 10 hours based on the 103mi/52h estimated distance-charge time for 120v). At this rate on a 30 mile commute, I will have a daily net loss of 10mi in range and will be forced to charge it for a at least a whole day on the weekend. Probably oversimplifying the math, but I think the concern is there.

Park my car at a garage during work hours that have the Level 2 charging and pay for it with just light 120v charging at home on the weekend (probably around $70/month if I can get it subsidized at all + $0.95/hour).

Do a cheap 240v hookup to the house and an EVSE upgrade (which seems to be problematic unless I can park indoors).

Is this a pretty complete list of options? What would you choose? Certainly it would diminish the value proposition, but would any of these things be dealbreakers to buying an EV (120v only charging/cannot park indoors/cannot charge at work)?

If I was a renter with an electric dryer in the garage, I would buy an LCS-25 and wire it with a plug to match my dryer plug. This is a good idea because most dryers are wired for 240V 30A, and the LCS-25 is 240V 25A, so it's totally safe with no wiring or breaker changes. You will have to buy and connect a plug for the LCS-25 since it is shipped with only a pigtail. This solution will charge at least 3X faster than the included Toyota (Panasonic) 120V EVSE. However, it is still only half the maximum charge rate of the RAV4.

 

[Spiffster]

I think bought the last BP white at Carson a week ago... Sorry about that. It really is a great color, but Im sure they will get more in soon. Anyway, we have been charging our Volt on 110 with no issues, and we drive it between 30-40 miles a day using no gas at all. For the RAV we got 220/30A charger installed, but thats only because we needed another circuit installed in the garage anyway. The ability to top off the Volt from time to time is a nice bonus. But we really could have gotten by just fine with two 110 circuits I think. Especially building up a huge 100 mile buffer over the weekends... just my .02.