Dec 2014 sales Rav4 EV - "37" Production Ended Aug 2014

[Jscifres]

I can't figure out why Toyota is not passing on to the lessee the $7,500 tax credit when leasing....

Would love to hear your thoughts, if anyone has an opinion/info.

There's nothing to "figure out". They keep the $7500 on a lease, as they have a right to do. That didn't meet with my personal approval, so I purchased.

This was a car which I really wanted to lease, given the uncertainty of the technology. Given that I've NEVER leased, I'm thinking that most people buying in this segment feel the same way.

I think 0 guilt has a good point in that Toyota's apparent decision to not pass on some portion of the tax credit in a lease is hurting 'sales'. That said, prior to the December incentives, Toyota was basically passing on $5k of that Federal incentive to the Lessee as the only cash back offered was if you leased the car. In November, I considered the Leaf lease partly because Nissan was passing on the full tax credit. Now that an equal amount of Toyota cash is on the table for both a lease and a purchase, I feel (like Tony) that the pendulum swings heavily toward purchasing the car.

 

[0 guilt]

So here's the thing:
a) when you purchase the car, as a buyer, you benefit from the tax credit, from Toyota's promotions (currently $6K), and from state incentives
b) furthermore, what Toyota is getting is their full price, less their promotions (so ~$44K)

When I lease, the lease is basically for $44K (because of Toyota's $6K promotion), but then Toyota gets $7,500 in the form of a tax credit....so in a lease scenario Toyota gets for that car $51,500...

Now I really don't care what Toyota earns; I wish their earnings will continue to grow forever. But that $7,500 incentive by the government is targeted to get more people to take a leap of faith and drive EVs. Which is exactly what we are doing, by either leasing or purchasing.

The funny thing is that Toyota has agreed to get "only" $44K for that car (purchase scenario)...so why would they want to get $51,500 in a lease scenario? some of you might come back and say because of the risk they're taking at the end of the lease. But for that they have the residual to mitigate that risk (they can set the residual to whatever the hell they want)

I guess they want people purchasing the car vs leasing. I personally don't believe they'll hit their compliance numbers (2600 in 3 years) by not making the lease super sexy.

 

[Dsinned]

Don't forget that financing at 0 down and 0% is essentially the same as renting to own. For a car in this price range, the monthly payment can be quite high on an outright purchase, which is the advantage to leasing. However, if you financed a purchased with a typical new car loan at 10 to 15% APR, your payment is even higher. In terms of the deferred finance charge, over the term of the loan, that finance charge really adds up to many thousands of dollars on top of the pruchase price of the car. Not quite as much as $6000 cashback and certainly not nearly as much as $10k in combined federal tax credit and CA rebate, but still a substantial amount of money saved nevertheless.

It is almost unheard of to get a 0%APR loan for up to 5 years ***AND*** $6000 off sticker, no questions asked!!! Usually if you qualify for 0% factory loan, you might get $1k off sticker - maybe - but not both. To walk in off the street and get such a deal essentially handed to you on a platter, with no negogiating required is simply a no brainer. The only reason not to BUY is if you cannot afford the monthly payments. On the other hand, if you own a business and make the lease payments - which is not that affordable either - you probably can claim everything you spend on the car entirely as tax deductible business expense.

Imho, leasing is not a good deal unless you have a suitable tax advantage, or if you simple want to have a higher priced car within reach at a lower income level.

There are other financial considerations of course, in determining whether buying vs. leasing is the best deal for you. But, if you never buy a car you will never have one to sell or trade in either, which will most likely keep the monthly payments perpetually out of reach when the times comes to get a new one.

 

[0 guilt]

Dsinned,

IMHO, Purchasing is a very risky proposition for this car, unless you plan to keep it for many years (many = 6 years or more). Reason is that the car will practically be unsellable in 2-3 years. Ask any 2011 Nissan Leaf owner...

These cars' technology will practically be obsolete in 2-3 years, where the norm will be 150 miles plus per charge, the cars will be more affordable and there will be many more options to choose from (to mention a few: BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, Tesla's next gen car, Nisssan leaf's third gen car, ford's, GM and more).

So you lay down today $44k at 0% APR (which Toyota is also offering on Corolla, Sienna, Camry and many more....so it is NOT unheard of) only to find out in 2 years (after paying 1/3 of the 6 year loan = $14k and owing another $30k) that you can buy a better car, with better range, at a lower cost of what you still owe on your 2 year car....

This applies only to EVs since the technology advances and there are more competitors entering the market on an ongoing basis. I don't know how many years you've driven an EV, but take it from a 2-year Leaf owner.

Leasing is the optimal route for these cars (and if Toyota offered 2 years lease that would be even better). There's a reason that's the route Nissan (eventually) went. They had to learn the hard way, which is what is happening to here with Toyota too (at first there were 0 incentives, then there was a $3,500 incentive, then 0% apr for purchase/lease and today an additional $6k incentive).

The only way Toyota will start moving metal (and hit their compliance goals) is by offering the lease AND passing on the $7,500 tax credit to the lessee, AND offering additional incentives.

Again, my personal opinion based on following this market daily for the last few years, and owning (exclusively) an EV for the last 2 years.

 

[Dsinned]

There is always something "better" just over the horizon. When you buy any new car, the minute you drive it off the lot, it becomes a "used car" and therefore generally less desireable. If you accept that fact, you either are always waiting for something better, or just try to be happy with what already exists and you can be driving TODAY. As it turns out, I paid dearly for my RAV4 EV in November as an early adopter, but the pleasure of owning the best an electrified Toyota RAV4 can be, has made up for what otherwise could be a lot of buyer's remorse. I probably will own the car for at least 5 or 6 years, and by then if there is a much better BEV with significantly greater range, that I can afford, I may be able to trade up or perhaps upgrade to a newer technology battery. But best of all I will own the car outright, and no longer be making any PAYMENTS. :mrgreen:

 

[TeCKis300]

I looked at it like this:

- I was able to drive off the dealer lot for $0 down and financed the full cost (after $5k Toyota cashback)
- I will shortly pocket a $2.5k CA rebate check, probably before I've made the first payment
- I will pocket $7.5k when I file my 2012 taxes, probably before my 3rd payment.

How awesome is that to have almost 10k on hand before even making any significant payments!?! That in itself will pay for the financing through the first year with zero out of pocket, while additionally saving gas money.

My usage patterns will allow me to save ~$400/mth in gas. The car will practically self finance in 8 years compared to if I bought no car at all and continued to burn gas. I do have an advantage in that I've always kept 3 cars in a 2 driver household. The EV gets to shoulder the bulk of the mileage burden, and I can keep my fun gas hogs pristine.

 

[virtualy]

To walk in off the street and get such a deal essentially handed to you on a platter, with no negogiating required is simply a no brainer.

Not quite a no-brainer, for all the reasons 0 guilt points out, and more.

The battery pack is warranted for 8 years. After that, the cost to replace falls on the owner. I imagine a replacement pack is very expensive.

Even with all the wonderful enticements, this is still a $35,000 vehicle. You can get a 3 series BMW for that much money.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the RAV4 EV. I've kept my last two vehicles for 12+ years each, so I'd almost certainly recoup a considerable sum in avoided gasoline cost - assuming the battery pack lasts the duration.

But a no-brainer, sorry to say, this ain't.

 

[0 guilt]

Everyone makes good points. And I think there is no right or wrong. The only points I was trying to make is that a) everyone should absolutely be driving an EV for all the reasons mentioned above, b) at this stage of EV technological evolution, I think it is preferable to lease, and c) I absolutely will lease the Rav4 ev once Toyota decides to not screw lease customers vs purchase customers. After all, the idea behind the tax credit is to incent EV drivers, and the fact that the leasing company (in this case Toyota) is pocketing that money is morally (and financially) wrong, despite being "legally/formally" allowed.

I think we can wrap this point up; thank you moderators/all for your wise insights with regards to this point.

 

[virtualy]

BTW, I found the skinny on the latest cash back:

Requirements and Restrictions:
Bonus Cash is available towards leasing or retail purchases. Must finance through Toyota Financial Services using special APR financing or lease rates.

Bonus $6,000
Start 01/08/2013
End 02/04/2013

 

[TonyWilliams]

52 sold for Feb and 25 for Jan 2013

 

[Dsinned]

52 sold for Feb and 25 for Jan 2013

To recap:

Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269

These sales stats are PATHETIC TOYOTA!!!

 

[waidy]

I think is kind of cool having a car with a lot of zeros in the Vin number.

I think they started at 1000, because my serial number is 1134. I'm reasonably confident that means after 30 odd prototypes, I'm about 134, not 1134.

I agree. I'm 1062 so there are 7 cars made before mine after the 55 that went to dealers, but I don't know if they had been sold yet. I also don't know how many Toyota kept. The one at the Ka auto show was 1137

Ummm... Our first Rav4EV is 1051.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Ummm... Our first Rav4EV is 1051.

Bob is number 11.

http://myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=626#p626

 

[Blastphemy]

The year for Jan/Feb is wrong in previous posts. Here is the corrected list:

Sep 2012 - 61 ........... 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ............ 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ............ 269

Too bad the sales numbers are correct! Perhaps if Toyota actually tried to sell these cars, there would be higher sales! If the Nissan Leaf can sell 653 units in February, a car I consider inferior to the Rav4 EV in many respects, then Toyota should be able to sell at least half of that number! The difference? Nissan actually tries to sell the Leaf and consumers know it exists. With Toyota's crazy incentives, the Rav4 EV is barely more expensive than a fully-loaded Leaf, and is a much larger and faster vehicle.

 

[Blastphemy]

Toyota RAV4 EV Sales:

Sep 2012 - 61 ............. 61
Oct 2012 - 47 ........... 108
Nov 2012 - 32 ........... 140
Dec 2012 - 52 ........... 192
Jan 2013 - 25 ........... 217
Feb 2013 - 52 ........... 269
Mar 2013 - 133 ......... 402

Sales of other cars in March:

Tesla Model S: 1,900 - 2,400 (approx.)

Nissan LEAF: 2,236
Chevrolet Volt: 1,478

Toyota Prius Plug-In: 786

Ford C-Max Energi: 494
Ford Fusion Energi: 295 (all in the last 3-5 days of the month!)
Ford Focus Electric: 180
Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 31
Honda Accord Plug-In: 26

Honda Fit EV: 23
Fisker Karma: 19 (and probably out of business)

 

[Dsinned]

It really is kind of hard to believe that with our far from robust economy (and still rather sluggish stock market), that such an expensive EV like the Tesla is selling so well. It is clear to see that the other highest priced EV, the Fisker Karma, is truly on the skids, but then again, its electric range was nothing much to compete with some of the other cars in this category.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Model: March (Feb) of 2013:

Leaf : 2,236 (653)
Model S : 2,150* (1,400*)
FFE : 180 (158)
i : 31 (337)
RAV4 EV : 133 (52) *** 402 total sales of 2600 ***
Fit EV : 23 (15)


Total EVs : 4,753 (2,615)


Volt : 1,478 (1,626)
PIP : 786 (693)
C-Max Energi : 494 (334)

Fusion Energi : 295 (119)

Accord PHEV : 26 (17)


Total PHEVs : 3,079 (2,789)

 

[jspearman]

Can't believe Toyota isn't moving the RAV faster in CA, especially with Prius buyers coming to the same lot. Seems like an easy upsell to the green consumer, but I think most people don't even know it exists.

 

[AvLegends]

Can't believe Toyota isn't moving the RAV faster in CA, especially with Prius buyers coming to the same lot. Seems like an easy upsell to the green consumer, but I think most people don't even know it exists.

+1... People are amazed when they see my Rav4 EV. They say that they didn't know it was available. Don't know about EV's other than the Nissan Leaf. At least Nissan is getting the word out. Starting to see prime time Leaf commercials. Not sure if they are for the local market or national but glad to see them none the less...

Toyota needs to advertise these things!

 

[Dsinned]

Can't believe Toyota isn't moving the RAV faster in CA, especially with Prius buyers coming to the same lot. Seems like an easy upsell to the green consumer, but I think most people don't even know it exists.

+1... People are amazed when they see my Rav4 EV. They say that they didn't know it was available. Don't know about EV's other than the Nissan Leaf. At least Nissan is getting the word out. Starting to see prime time Leaf commercials. Not sure if they are for the local market or national but glad to see them none the less...

Toyota needs to advertise these things!

Yep, virtually no advertising, no bigtime magazine test/reviews, no visible association with Tesla, only a "me-too" battery warranty, no options (like available on a standard RAV4), limited exterior color choices, MSRP overpriced and likely to induce sticker shock on most ppl looking to buy an economical SUV or "family" car, EPA Label has 92 mile range (much lower than actual limit), terrible existing customer relations (scheduled charging issue, almost secret "loyalty" cashback incentive, and early adopters got screwed paying WAAAY more, higher APR financing, or got a woefully non-competitive lease), limited "authorized" dealerships, poorly trained Toyota sales ppl, and worst of all. Toyota has all but condemned this model to a limited production run, single market in CA, as a "compliance" car.